Great discussion of modern spiritualism, between Prof. J. Stanley Grimes and Leo Miller, Esq. : at the Melodeon, Boston, every evening during the second week in March 1860

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GREAT DISCUSSION

OF

MODERN SPIRITUALISM,

BETWEEN

PROF. J. STANLEY GRIMES AND LEO MILLER, ESO.

AT THE

MELODEON, BOSTON,

]{Tdr7 eTexiing dnriss the sooond week ia Merdh, 1860.

QUXSTIONS :

1. Do tpmts of dqtarted kamum hei$tg$ koU inUnamne wUh mm on uartk^ oi dabiud fty modem i^infmrif Hi f

2. Ckm the vanous phenomena knoum as Sjpini MatU/ksUHiont be eaii^fiuioriijtandphaotopkiBaBf
Jbr wUhotU admitting the agencjf of dt^artedkmnan being* T

BIPOBTID, TBBBAXDf, lOB THE «*BANNBB OF LIGBT.»

^BOSTON:
PUBLISHED BY BERRY, COLBY, A^ COMPANY.

I860.

7*

i"\

Xntawd aeeoiding to Mt of CoDgTCM, in tb0 yew 1860, kj

6BRRT, COLBY, & CO..

In the Clerk's Ofllee of the Distrlet Court of the District of Bfaaeaohuaeike.

ftlPOBTXD, IK PBOnOOEAPltr,

BY J. H. POMSROY.

DISCUSSION.*

In pursuance of the following public notice, Leo Milleb, Esq., of Madison, New
York, and Professor J. Stanley Gbimes, of Boston, met at the Melodeon, Boston, on
the evening of Monday, March 5th, 18C0, to hold a debate >ipon the subject of Modem
Spiritualism.

"DISCUSSION or MODERN 8PIBITUALISH.

" Dr. H. F. Gardnxr having publicly challenged Prof. J. Stanlxt O&dcxs to meet him, or tome person whom
he may substitute, and the challenge being aoeeptad, iho discuMlon will commence in the Mriodeon, Washing*
ton Street, Boston, on Monday erening, Blarch 5, 1860, at 7 o'clock, and continue a number of tnceeuiTe ervn-
ings. Dr. Gardner has invited Leo Milleb, Esq., to open the debate in &Tor of Spiritualism. The foliowing
questions hare been agreed upon aa the basis oi the discuision : —
" 1 . Do spirits of departed fuiman beings hold intereowse with men on earth, as dainud bjf modem S^tuaUsii f

"LEO MILLER, AfflrmatiTe.
"J. STANlET ORIMBS, Negattr*.
"3. CkiTi the various phenomena know^ eu Spirit MBmifettationt be taiisjiuionljf and pkihscphkaUi/ aeeamtUd
far without admitting the agency of departed kuman beings ?

"J. STANLET ORIMES, AffiimaiiT*.
M LEO MILLER, Esq., Negative.'*

Dr. H. F. Gardner, of Boston, then read a statement of the origin of the debatei
and the rules agreed upon for its conduct, as follows : —

Boston, Ffitbniaty S8, 1800.

J. 8. OaiicBS, in his lecture in Mercantile Hall, OMuplained ^st the Spirito^ists did net and dare not pMf^.
erly investigate, and expressed his willingness to luure the matter thoroug^y diecosied aad investigated, if tkm
Spiritualists would but act in accordance with their own professions, etc. Dr. H. F. GARniriB arose, and, ailar
referring to the remarks of Mr. Grimes, Tlenied that they were applicable to lilmself or to the Spiritualists d
B&ston, ani^ declared that the Harvard College professots, particulariy Profbssor Felton, declined the diiciit-.
sion. Now, therrfoie, he (Dr. Gatdner) proposed to Mr. Qrimei to have a diseuision at fueh time and plaoe m
might be determined at an interview the next day ; tiie questions at issue being, —

Ist, Do spirits of departed human beings hold intercourse with men on earth, as claimed by modem Spiritu-
alists ? Leo Milleb, Esq., will take the a£9nnative, J. S. Omms the negative.

Sdl, Can the various phenomena known as Spirit Manifestations be sktislhcterily and piUkMophteaUj M>
counted for without admitting the agency of deqpiurted hwnan b^bgs ? Mr. GaiMts in the afflrmative, LM
Milleb in the n^^tive.

Mr. Grimes aoeq;»ted ttie challenge in the iwesenoe of tlie a«dienee, and a gieed to meet Dr. Gardner at %a
Mercantile Ilall the next day to armnge the preliminaries. It is mutual^ understood that under these two.
heads or questions the whole subject of modem Spiritualism may be discussed without any technical lestrlo-
tibns.

* In accordance with the desire of the publishers, the entire discussion is given vet-
haixm, the reporter not exercising an^r discretion in the premiiea. The only exception*
are in one or two cases where a correction was puUicly made^ bjr the speaker, upon thA
spot — Eeporter.

4 DISCUSSION OF 8PIBITUAXISM BETWEEN

HxBOAHTiu Hall, Februury 29.
Dr. Gardner met Mr. Grimes and arranged as follows : —

Ist. We are to have the diseussion in the Melodeon, commencing Monday eyening, March 5th, continuing
9mtj erening, except Sunday, till it is concluded, unless otherwise agreed.

2d. Either party may discuss personally or by proxy, it being understood that Lxo MnxxE, Esq., has accq;>ted
•n invitation from Dr. Gardner to defend modem Spiritualism on the occasion.

9d. It is understood and agreed that, in accordance with ttie terms of the. challenge, the discussion shall con-
tinue at least six evenings, and b^ cpndueted as follows: —

4th. Each speaker not to occupy more than twenty minutes at one time, alternating, until six speeches, alto-
gether, have been made in one evening, after which each speaker shall have five minutes for explanations.

6th. Neither party to interrupt the other while speaking, except when abscdutely necessary to prevent mis-
understandings, and then briefly and without argument.

6th. Neither party to indulge in personalities, or in any way to transcend the rules of polite discussion.

7th. It is especially desirable that no manifestations of approbation or disapprobation on the part of tht
audience shall be exhibited. H. F. GARDNER,

J. STANLEY GRIMES.

B. F. Whitten, Esq., of Boston, having consented to preside at the discussion, took
the chair, and the question for the evening was read : —

^* Do spirits of departed human beings hold intercourse with men on earthy 6s claimed by
modem Spiritualists f '*

MR, MTTJiTlR

Opened the debate, in the affirmative, as follows : —

Mr. Moderator, and Ladies and Gentlemen of the Audience: Before proceeding to
discuss the questioii before us this evening, I de&ire to make a few preliminary remarks
on the general character of the subject. The question of direct spirit-intercourse has
been suddenly and unexpectedly forced upon the attention of the world, carrying
convicUon to the minds of thousands and tens of thousands, on both sides of the Atlantic.
And I may truly say, that never, in the annals of human history, has any subject of a
moral or religious character taken, such a deep hold upon mind at large, in so short a
time, aft has modem Spiritualism. The advent of Christ, the promulgation of Christianity,
the Lutheran Reformation in the sixteenth century, sink into comparative insignificance,
when compared with the wide-spread influence that Spiritualism has exerted upon the
public mind, within the past twelve years. It has entered the abodes of all, the rich and
poor, the learned and the unlearned, carrying conviction of its truthfulness and of its divine
origin. Eminent statesmen, eminent senators in the coupcils of the nation, judges, law-
yers, clergymen, doctors, have become the unconscious instruments of the most remaric-
aUe manifestations of alleged spiritual power, or have witnessed these through others,
under their own personal investigation, so that they were forced to acknowledge the truth
of spirit-intercourse. From the king upon his imperial throne, from the palatial halls of
zefinement and learning, down to the lowly cottage and the humUe man, we find the
same glad tidings of joy, that the dear departed of other days return and hold converse
with those they left behind.

I do not wish to be understood as presenting this, here, as an argument upon the
question, but, rather, to show the respectable character of the subject which is to engage
your attention, and its paramount claims upon every person who starts out upon its
investigation.

• I am aware that S[Hritualism, like every other newly developed truth, has met with the
BBOst determined opposition. It has been assailed on every side, without mercy, and, too
often, the weapons of its (^^ponents have been only ridicule, glaring misrepresentation,
and vulgar-minded contempt But it is too late in the day to use siKsh weapons as these.

LEO MILLER AND VBOW. OmMWL Or

Spiritualism has become so deeply entrenched in the hearts of thousands that raeh
arguments can no longer influence the wise and intelligent, — none bat the ignorant, dM
prejudiced, and the dishonest

In holding this discussion, I expect to meet, from my fHend, a determined oppositioik'.
From his long years of experience in the realms of mentid philosophy, he is competeiil
to explode Spiritualism, if such a thing be possible. And I would here say to tlie
audience, that should my friend find it necessary to evade my arguments or my facts •«-
should he find it necessary to cavil, or throw dust in your eyes, — understand it is not
£oT the want of" ability to meet them, or want of information, but is owing altogetheif toi
the untenable position he has assumed.

And I would say, further, that in my acceptance of this invitation from Dr. Gardner,
there was one paramount motive in view, and that was, to elicit the truth on the all-
absorbing topic of spirit-intercourse, and spread it before the public. But while I mod-
estly claim this, of myself, I cheerfully accord, to my brother, and respected opponent,
the same honest intentions. Let the audience, and let the speakers, feel a desire to ob-
tain truth, and this discussion shall be productive of much good. Let every Spiritu-
alist and Anti-spiritualist divest himself of all prejudice. Let every argument be
calmly and dispassionately examined, in the light of reason and philosophy, and this
discussion shall be an honor to the city of Boston, an honor to the audience, an honor to
the speakers, an honor to Dr. Gardner, and to all concerned.

The question before us this evening, and that which is to occupy the two succeeding
evfinings, is this : —

Do spirits of departed human beings hold intercourse with men on earthy as daxmud
by modem Spiritualists f

I afiirm : my brother denies.

In discussing this question, I shall not, this evening; bring forward my direct proof, or
direct testimony, but, rather, shall proceed to build up an argument on the antecedent
probabilities of spirit-intercourse.

What I mean by the probability of spirit-intercourse, is, its intrinsic reasonableness,—
that it is moro likely to be true than otherwise. Now, as reasonable beings, our minds
are conipelled to preponder^e in favor of that which appears reasonable, that which
appeals to common sense. Afler I have made this argument on the probability of
spirit-intercourse, we shall proceed to consider its absolute certsdnty — to tibe direct and
positive proof.

Proceeding, then, upon the universally conceded l^tct that there is a spirit-world,—
fi>r this will not be called in question, — that man is immortal, and lives beyond the
grave, I lay it down here, as an incontrovertible proposition, that it is reasonable and
rational that these spiritual beings should exert an influence over us, on this principle
of nature ; that there is no such thing to be found, in the universe, as absolute iso-
lation ; that no spiritual being, in the body or out of the body, can become independent
of others ; but that thei^ is a mutual and reciprocal reladon existing between the
intelligences throughout the realms of created existence. We know this is true of the
physical universe ; we know that every particle of matter has an affinity for every other
particle of matter; we know that every world attracts and is attracted by every other
world. There is not a bright orb rolling through space, but bears a reciprocal relation
to every other ; there is not a ungle atom oi matter belonging to our earth, but, in
proportion, attracts the sun, and, in turn, is attracted by the sun. This mighty system
of worlds is bound together by indissoluble chains d attraction and gravitation. This^
my friend, and the worid, wiU ooseede as tme in the physieal nmrerse. And is it not

V; BlSOUfiSIOir &r 8PIBITnALI9M BETWEEN

oquallj, and more beautifiilly, true, when we rise above the physical and come to th«
gvtot empire of mind ? Is it possible that minds are isolated from other minds, or is
there a mutual, reciprocal relalaon, throughout ? I say there must be ; I declare unto
you there cannot be angel, arehangel, or spirit of man, but bears relation to every
otiier angel, to every other al^changel, to every human souL All spiritual beings are
hoimd together by the stroageftt lies, by the chains o£ spiritual attraction. If, then, this
be true, the beings of that ^rit-world must exert an influence over us ; — it cannot be
denied. And, to my mind, it is a strong argument, at least of the probability of spirit*
intftrcourse.

This position is confirmed, also, by another position which I take, here, to establish the
probability of spirit-intercourse ; and that is, the united and confirmed testimony of the
#orld. Go back to the remotest ages c^ time, to the savage inhabitants o£ the islands of
tlte sea, to the untutored inhalHtants of the forest, and they recognize that they are
smnounded by an invisible intelligence, — all believe in a superintending Providence.
The poor idcdater, bowing down to sticks and stones, looks to his fancied deity and feels
^afc there is a spirit-world. And not this alone, but the universal desire of man for
immortality is proof that he shall attain immortality. And when we find it equally true
tiiat man recognises the invisible intelligences surrounding him, is it not a strong
argument in favor of the fact of the existence of such intelligences ? Is it not true that
the spiritual instincts of man have realized their presence ?

But have we to dweU, ak)ne, upon spiritual philosophy ? We have the united dec-
laration of the wisest and best men who have ever lived in any age of the world. The
aooient bards, prophets, and seers claimed to have been influenced by spiritual beings,
to have seen spirits, and to have talked with them. And in more modem times, this is
universally acknowledged. I say this is acknowledged, among the most spiritually
ninded, among that class of persons who would be most likely to know .whether or not
ibis true : tlie great poets, the great sculptors, warriors, and artists, feel the presence of the
invisible intelligence which aids them. Swedcnborg declares that, for twenty-seven
years, he daily conversed with ^iritual beings. All grant him the possession of a refined
9hd spiritual mind. Jifilton declares we are surrounded by spiritual beings, that

«<WaU(th^ earth
Voaeen, both when we wake and when we sleep."

And our modem poets breathe forth the same sentiment Longfellow, and Tenny*
son, and others, express the same thought Henry Ward Beecher says, " There are times
when my children in the spiritrworM appear to be more immediately present, when I
bear their voices more plainly than ever on earth.** Hairiet Beechar Stowe says, in
substance, that the spirits of our departed friends often become our naturally and divinely
appointed guardian angels. We have this testimony, I say, from the most spiritually
minded men and women of every age and in all time : and who, I ask, would be move
likely to know whether or not this is true, — ^lo who is spiritually minded, or the gro69
•nd sensual ? On ahoost all occasions when those who are gone hence are brought to
mind, the pulpit orator breaks forth in struns oi rapturous eloquence, declaring that
those who once lived were present Last summer, when the comer-^tone of the monu-
ment at Plymouth was laid, Mr. Warren, who presided on the occasion, called on the
one hundred who landed from the Mayflower, and, in a burst of inspiration, declared
tint they were in our midst, and looking down upon' us with eyes of love, joy, and
gratitude. Last summer, at the laying of the corner-stone of the chapel at Hamilton
CoUege, in New York, ^Jm revaitond gentlenum who prasided taid tlwt those w]i»

LEO MILLBB AND FBOF. GftlMBS. 7

had gone hence, the fbtmdeni of Hamilton College, were looking down, with eye* ot
heavenly love and wisdom, taking part in the ceremoniefl, and rejoicing to see the wwk
of their hands proe^r. Is there ixit, in all this, a probability of the truth of sfnritmiiiiii
course?

But further, my friends, I hold in my hand, here, a record of the ^ritual and rvlig*
ious growth of man, in a period of more than four thousand years out of six, and I find
that this book is replete with the evidence of the return of spiritual beings. For fimr
thousand years out of six, man daily held oonverse with the ^irit-world. And noir
I ask my brother, I stk. the world, — when the conditions by which they may hdd inters
course have been revoked. We have no evidence that ihey have ever been so re*
pealed. The Bible, I say, is replete with this evidence ; and unless there can be soni^
good reason why this law should be repealed, why the ministry of spiritual intelligence*
should be withdrawn, I shall consider that it exists, and may exist to-day, as weQ as 4t
yore.

And I would here call your attention to this one fkct, that like conditions alwayi
produce like results. Whatever has been, may be i^am, provided we establish similar
condltioiis. Now, if ever it were possible for spirits to conmiunicate with men, and 2
think, with the position of my lnt>ther, he cannot deny that this has taken place, then
I say that all that is necessary for spirit-intercourse, to-day, is the establishment of like
conditions. Let me illustrate it. To-day, we can take daguerreotypes. The artist, by
conforming to certain conditions, may take the human face divine, in an instant, almoat
He must adjust his camera just so, he must make his plate duly senative, and use the
sunlight of heaven ; and if he has established the conditions, the man's face is prodncad*
Now, suppose we take away the camera, disperse the pictures, and take no n^ore for
eighteen hundred years. Every boy knows, that, if at the end of that time we can •»•
tablish similar conditions, similar results will take place. If men will but take thaif
camera, and make sensitive the plate, and adjust the camera properly, the same re^
suits will be attained. **

I ask my brother to give us some reason why these conditions should be revoked*
We shall show, from this record, that, for a period of four thousand out of six thousand
years, spiritual beings were daily in the habit of conversing with men, and, moreoveri
that the conditions which then existed, exist to-day, and that toe manifestations of the
spirit at this day, are analogous to those of the past.

In offering this argument, on the probability of spirit-intereourse, I quote from the
Bible. I quote it as good testimony, in speaking of these facts, and I shall endeavor to
show that the fact of to-day, and that of eighteen hundred or two thousand years ago,
arc precisely analogous. And when we come to the direct proof, we shall endeavor to
show, further, that the same testimony which the Christian Church has received to
establish Christianity, the same testimony which the world has received to establidi
the foots of the Bible, we have, to-day, — and more of it, — to establish the truth oi
spirit-intercourse.

MR. aiOMES

Opened the debate, upon the negative of the question, as follows : —
I am sure that the audience must have been very much interested in the remarfai
made by my friend, — so very eloquent, so pious. I think you must have been delighted
by his acknowledgment of the Bible, — so very rare for us to hear from a SpirituaUflt,
that it does us good. I am glad to find that he is disposed to found an ai^ument, in
&vor of the true Spiritualism, upon the Bible* I was, only, a little surprised that lie

8 BISOUSflXON OF SPIRITUALISM BETWEEN

should feel it necessaiy, bere, in this argument, to show the probability of spirit-inte^r-
oonrse ever having existed at all. I am not aware that that is doubted by any sect
of Christians, whatever. The question is not, — Do spirits communicate ? — but, — Do
they communicate as pretended by the modem Spiritualists ? It is the way and man-
ner of the communication, and not the fact itself, that is before us. That is the ques-
tion.

Tlie gentleman said that modem Spiritualism is opposed because it is new, as all new
tilings are, — that there was a prejudice against it, on account of its very novelty ;
and he glanced at the fact that other new discoveries, of great importance, have been
opposed. He referred, by the way, to the iact that this doctrine has taken a wider
spread, — wider and deeper and more extensive, — than die Reformation of Luther,
or almost any other, — is received by larger numbers, and produces greater effect.
Now, there is one difference between this novelty and every other superstition that
ever came before the world. There is one feature in modem Spiritualism, that is
peculiar,,-*- and, indeed, it b the very cause of the discussion here, to-night I regard
tiuB modem Spiritualism as a superstition, fiut it differs from every superstition that
Ae world has ever seen, in that it pretends to challenge investigation. Every other
saperstition that the world has ever seen, has based its claim to belief upon a direct
inspiration, or a pretence of miracles, or something beside investigation. They shrink
from an investigation; they have always done so. The Spiritualists make a pre-
tennon, which I admire and alwajis have admired, and but for which I should never
have thought of meddling with it ; they have dared us to investigate ; and a man who
has a particle of manly spirit within him is bound to accept the challenge. When Ma-
homet promulgated his doctrine, which, by the way, is no more a superstition than this,
he did not ask you to investigate and believe it, but thrust it down your throat at the
point of the sword. The Mormons, also, — and they have a system of spiritualism hav-
ing many things in common with this Spiritualism, — hdd to the doctrine that they
shall force opposition, that they shall plunder the Gentiles, that their mission is to
trample on all that oppose them. But these modem Spiritualists take a different
ground. Many of them are liberal men ; they belong to the liberal classes of the
community ; some of them are men of education ; some profess to an acquaintance with
science. Except our friend here, they treat the Bible with the utmost contempt. {
have heard the most eloquent among them sneer at Jesus Christ, and ridicule his cross.
I am glad my friend did not; — he spoke so beautifully upon it, that it did my heart
good ; — I never heard it from them before ; but, you know, " progression *' is the word
They are unwilling to be held down by despotism of the creeds and churches. They
are in favor of progress, in every respect This phrenology, that is so unpopular, they
encourage; mesmerism they encourage; geology, astronomy, all the sciences, are
welcome to them ; and they welcome modern Spiritualism as merely one of the experi-
mental sciences, to be ranked with ^e experimental sciences. That is glorious ; there-
fore it is that I meet them. And I say that if Spiritualism is tme, the mode in which
they propose to examine it and bring it before the world will make it, inevitably, the
religion of the world. Every church must come down, every other spell must fail
before a power like that They do not pretend to put their light under a bushel, —
not they ; they bring out their doctrines here, before day. They do not darken their
xoQOis, — oh, no I they light up, and investigate at the very noonday. Therefore it is, I
repeat, that I meet them, and am pleased to meet them.

I thought that some of them did not act consistently with that doctrine. When I came
to investigate, I found they would shrink, and I complained : and I was rejoiced when

LBO MILLSR AND PBOF. QRIMSS. 9

mj fiiend Dr. Grardner took up the question, and said I had done injustice, — that here
in Boston, in this centre of l%ht, they do not shrink from inquiry ; they may do it at
the West, but here in Boston is the intellectual centre, and here they are ready to
inTestigate according to the rules of science.

The gentleman refers to the fact that mankind have always manifested a desire ftr
8{nritual knowledge, — that it exists in the palace and in the cottage, among the rioli
and the poor : tiie yeriest savage, indeed, even the

" poor Indian, whoM nntntond nind
Sect God in the clondi, and hears him in the wind,
And ftmple nature to wliofle hope faaa giren,
Bcjond the eload«eapped hills, a hnmbkr heaven," —

sees fhe spirits there, — even he has a heayen, rude, to be sure, for he had a rude earth.
Now, that is all true. But what does it prove ? Does it prove that the spirits came, in
all these different nations, and enlightened these men ? If so, why didn't they tell the
same story ? Why in one land is there one superstition, and in another, another ? Why
did the spirits in Judea tell one story, in Australia and South America and this region
another ? Were spirits of the other world unacquainted with geology ? Let me teQ
the gentleman what that doctrine proved; — not that the spirits came and communi*
cated, but that man is naturally superstitious. It is natural to man, when he is in
ignorance, and sees the phenomena of nature around him, to attribute these phenomena
to some intelligent principle.

The evidence of the existence of God is all around us. There is intelligence in all
the works of God ; and the man of limited mind sees that intelligence in some narrow
circle and knows not that the Being who made that little bush made the planets above
him. He does not grasp the idea of one supreme intelligence — for that is the modern
word, which Spiritualists have introduced — they say, not spirits, but " intelligences : " — a
very good word, and one which applies to the belief of the savage very well. When the
heathen saw these spirits in the wood, they had the spirits (^the wood, in the water the
spirits of the water, in the heavens the spirits of the heavens. In aU they saw, they per-
ceived, not one Being, who rules every thing, but a host of minor spirits. So it was with
all mankind — all except one people, to whom God gave his Revelation. Why he gave
it to them and not to others, I know not ; but so it was. Look at the Greeks, a most
wondrous people, — at their poetry, their eloquence, their architecture. Then look at
their system of Spiritualion, — how exalted and beautiful I Do you suppose spirits tM
them there was a Jupiter, a Neptune, an Apollo, a Bacchus, a Venus ? Did they learn
it from spirits, or did it spring from the spontaneous imaginations of their own creative
gei^us ? Do we not find superstition around us, now ? Tell a child that there is a spirit
in that dark closet, or here or there, and he is ready to believe it This is ndture. And
it is the very same thing that makes the Spiritualist believe that a spirit is tipping his
table, or rapping, that makes the savage believe there is a spirit in the winds, and the
waters, the thunder and lightning.

The Spiritualists are for investigation ; and they shall have it ; I insist, now, upon
your investigation being carried out They don't ask us to believe. The Christian
asks you to believe ; he insists upon it as a duty. The Spiritualist says, — No, we don't
want you to believe, but to knoto. The remark of Dr. Gardner, when he ofi*ered this chal-
lenge was, — *^ I don't "believe Spiritualism, — IJcnow it" I would thank him andliia
friends to distribute their knowledge, and let us have a share of it. If Spiritualism is
true, let us all be Spiritualists. Don't you see, my friends, that if the evidence of Spir-
itoaliam was so abundant as they declare^ there could be nd sceptics ? When GalUeo

10 DISOUMION OF SPIBZTUALISIC BBTVTEEK

discovered that Jupiter bad several mooBS, he didnH; ask men to beHeve. When he said
lie could show the moons, he didnt ask men to believe ; he didnl complain about pee^
pie doubting his word ; he only taked them to just look ihroi^ that tube, and he
complained because they would not look. 19oW) I come to look^ I want to look thfough
Ais tube. I want to see these planets,—- to see these spiritued beings manifest them-
ielves. I don't want to be called upon to believe upon evidence tiiat no court of justice
in the world would admit The gentleman says that if we will only have the conditions
as they had them in olden times, we can have the spirits a3 they did. Will not some of
the spirits that communicate with him, so much, be kind enough to tetl us what the con-
ditions are, that are required in order that we may have these manifestations? What
are the conditions necessary to raise the dead ? What are the conditions necessary to
make the sun stand still, aa when Joshua called upon it to stand sdll v^Km Gibeon ? For
the gentleman says, — Only get up the conditions, and we can have Hiq manifestations
now ; — and he believes the Bible now. YIThat are the conditions required, that a man
may be bom of a woman as Chnst was ? And the gentleman believes all this — you know,
]ie believes the Bible. What are the conditions requisite in order to have water turned
into wine, to have a man walk upon water, to have a man nse up into the clouds^
and to go to heaven without death ? All we want is, ** the conditbns " ! And we have
q^its around us, — the very spirits who went to heaven at that time, — Christ, and
Paul, and all the apostles are ready to whisper in our ears and tell us what the condi-
tions are. Now will not they do their wonders ? Christ did not go into a darkened
room and perform his miracles. The loaves and fishes were shown openly. The sun
shone just as brightly, when it stood still, as when it moved. And if these wonders
w.ere worked under the laws of nature, are the laws of nature changed? If not, why
dim't we have the wonders ?

Mr, Moderator y and Ladies and Gentlemen : My preliminary remarks on the gen-
eral character of Spiritualism have afforded my fnend an opportunity to have some-
thing to say. But I would beg to remind him that the question, to-night, is not,
whether the public will investigate Spiritualism, or not ; but is, — Do spirits o£ departed
human beings hold intercourse with men on earth, as believed by modem Spiritualists ?
He has made several statements, here, which, were this a proper place, I should be
pleased to answer ; but as it is not, I must pass them by. However, he has stated that
it is really refreshing that I should come forward, here, and accept the Bible. Now, I
would say to my(^ friend, and to this audience, that you cannot find an intelligent Spirit-
ualist in Boston, — or, if you wish me to take away the word intelliffent — you cannot
find a Spiritualist in Boston, who does not believe that that Bible is full of divine inspi-
ration. You cannot find an intelligent Spiritualist in the world, but considers the Bi-
ble replete with evidence of revelation from the spirit-world. lit is true that in regard
to the nature of inspiration we may differ from the theology of the world. I acknowl-
edge that the Bible contains inspiration ; the only issue that I take with the Christian
Church, is that while they claim inspiration as infallible, I claim that it is fallible, —
while they claim that it was plenary, I claim that it is universal, or general. Tlie other
remarks of my brother are not applicable to the question. I laid down two positions,
in regard to the probability of spiritual intercourse, neither of which he has attacked.
Tirst, that spirits, in and out of the body, must bear a mutual and reciprocal relation to
'^ach other, and mind act upon mind. He has not made an allusion to this. He has merely
.Teoapitulated, in regard to the other statement, what I have already said, — that the tea-

I.SO HIJ^LXE AND PROF. 6RIMB8. 11

timony of all the world is that we are surrounded by spiritual intelligenees. Boes the genr
tleman pretend to deny that there is a superintending Providence ? Does he deny that the
Indian has his Providence, to whom his untutored mind looks up in adoration ? My brother
aakB^ why^ if there be such a mutual relation and necessary mtercourse between all spirits,
as I have claimed, there was, for so many centuries, no revelation, to the other inhabitants
of the world, c£ the existence d the native tribes a£ this country. I^ might pertinently re*
tort, and ask why God does not teach to the Indian, the natives of South America, and
the Asiatic, all the same doctrines.

The gentleman has conceded much. He has conceded diat spirit-manifestations
occurred in olden time. And now, my friends, let us look at this a moment I will
read a portion of the twelfth chapter of Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians.

<* Now ooneendiig Bpiritnal gifts, brethren, I would not htsn you ignorant. • • • •

New there are diTendties of gifts, but the samo Spirit. And there are differenoes of adminfatrattwii, but the
fleme Lord. And there are direnities of oparattons, but it is the same God which worlseth all in all. But the
manifestation of the Spirit is ^ren to eTexy man to profit withal. For to one is givien by the Spirit the word
of wisdom; to anotiier, the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another^ the working of miracles; to
another, pro^iecy ; to another, discerning of spirits ; to another, diyers kind of tongues ; to another, the int^
pretation of tong^ies. • • • * j^d God hath set some in the church, first apostles,

seopndaxily prophets, thirdly tea<!fiers, after that miracles, tiwa gifts of healings, helps, goremments divert
ties of tongues. Are all i^iMstles ? are all prophets ? are all teaohos ? are all workers of miracles ? Have all
the gifts of heailng ? do all speak with tongues ? do all interpret ?" ^

My brother says- those are gifts that existed in Paul's day, in the Christian Church.
Paul says they all emanate from the same principle. I agree with the gentleman, k^e,
but in a universal sense, that God governs throughout the universe; but it must be
borne in mind that the Infinite employs instrumentalities and agents, and in this the
agents are spiritual beings, — '^Spirits of just men made perfect" God will not help
us to do that which we can do ourselves. The germ of the grain is indeed, given to us,
but yon must prepare your ground, and sow the seed, a^d reap the grain, and carry it
to your table, and raise it to your lips. Then, when it is in your digestive system, God
will take care of the rest God will not take care of your public schools. Your
children may grow up in ignorance, before the infinite G^ will instruct them. And
now I say to you, here, on this authority of nature, that, if it were possible for spiritual
beings to make the revelations which this world has received, to bestow the various
gifts existing' in the Christian Church in the earliest days, then they did make theml
God will not produce, by a direct effort of his will, what may be effected by inter-
mediate agencies. Now, is there any thing here that spiritual beings could not
do ? Na Paul says it is the same sfHrit. Yes, it is the same great spirit diat super-
intends; but he employs subordinate agencies. And in die fourteendi chapter of Cor-
intiuans, Paul rebukes the Corinthian Church for babbling too much in tongues. He
says it is not edifying or profitable to speak in tongues which no hearer could under-
stand. Now the gentleman claims that every miracle was produced by a special and
direct manifestation on the part of Deity. If so, then Paul was rebuking Jehovah.
But if those gifts were all the woric ci spirits holding intercourse with us, it was a sub-
ject of rebuke, as it would be to-day. It would not be edifying for you, if I should talk
in Indian, to-night It is well known, to those investigating Spiritnalisni, tliat we gen-
erally have such a gift as we denre. If a person is desirous of speaking in tongues, he
will, veary likely, attract a spirit <^ an influence of this nature ; and he will acquire that
gift. But if you assume that these ^fts were ndracles, wrought by God, then Paul was
rebuking liie Almighty. I assert that these manifestations were similar to those of our
imn day. And have we any evidence that die law by which these manifestatbns were
pititfoeed'has been i(epMed er zirvbked? I dedare that you nmf leai tiie Bible

13 DISCUSSION OF SPIBITUALISH BETWEEN

ihroagfa, and may go outnde tbe Biblie, and yoa will not find one word to show thi^t the
infinite God bas ever ordered these things to cease. And it is contrary to his laws, to
the plan of his universal government. Go into the fields of nature, and you find that
Nature's God is ever ready to. supply our demands, and never gives us a superabun-
dance of any thing ; but the car comes a,long, unloads its freight, just to the extent of
our need, and then passes, until the individual shall need it agsun. Last year, we had
m abundant supply of com, but not enough for eighteen hundred years ; — we shall
have a new supply the next year. The air, the food, the light, 4;^ to-day, will not su&
fice us fi>rever ; we must have, each day, a new supply. We are told that, eighteen
hundred years ago, God gave the world inspiration, and said, — There, that is all you
get for all coming time ; make the best of it Then, too, he gave the gift of healing. But
now, isxthere no demand for healing mediums? Yes, my firiend ; there is as much need
now, for all this, as eighteen hundred years ago, and no evidence exists that God ever
revoked that law.

The last words of Christ before his ascension, were, —

' '^ Go ye Into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. — ^"

Boston is in one part of the world, — Gro there and preach the Gospel to every
creature^ —

<< And these algns shall ibUow them that belieTe: In my name shall they cast out deiHa i—^
The undeveloped spirits, —

** They shall speak with new tongues ; they shall take up serpents ; and if they drink any deadly thing, it
•haU not hurt ttiem ; they shall lay hands on the skk, and they shall recover.*'

And did these gifts close with the Apostolic Age ? That they ceased measurably, I
acknowledge ; but they did exist in the Christian Church, for two or three hundred years,
while this Church was pure. Polycarp tells us this was true. Ecclesiastical histcny tells
us it was so fiar two or three hundred years. John Wesley tells us that these gifts did so
exist It was not until the Church became corrupt and vicious, that they ceased. No :
God ]ft» not r^v(^ed this law. That those manifestations ceased, I will acknowledge ;
but not because God had changed, but because man had changed his relations to the spirit-
world. Some conditions must exist, that those manifestations may take place. One
condition necessary when we mesmerize a person is, that the mesmeric subject shall be
passive and receptive, the operator positive and active. Then the subject may receive
the influence of the other's mind. Otherwise it is impossible, or, at least, more diffi-
cult, to con^l his mind so that an influence can be brought to bear upon him, capa-
ble of controlling him. These diflerences in s^nritual manifestations must exist Every
one knows that, about the second or third century, the Christian Church became corrupt
The Dark Ages set in for a thousand years. The Church became gross, licentious. The
priesthood became despotic ; the gory Inquisition was established ; the tenets of the
Church were forced upon men, with torture and sufiering. Here, then, the gift ceased.
As we have once before said that like conditions produce like results, all that is neces-
sary for man to receive these manifestations to-day, is, to relate himself properly to the
8[Hrit-world. I know that the Christian Church has proclaimed that all manifestations of
Sfurit-power closed eighteen hundred years aga But there is not one shadow of
proof of it Man has changed his relation to the spirit-world, but not so with God. He is
t2ie same inunutable, eternal, unchangeable Being, to-day and forever. Let man, who has
closed his eyes to avoid the soi^Qpen thenii and look into the heavens, and there is the
mokf shiniiif ^ brightly as ever. Man has gone into the dongeon. Therei in Hm daik*

LEO XILLBB AND PKOF. ORIMK8. 18

neflB, lie has asserted that all light is gone forever. Let him come up out of his darkness
and draw the sullen curtains ; let him sweep off the accumulated dust of ages, and let
the sunl%ht of heaven pour into his soul, and his nature will be insjured, to-day, as ei|^
teen hundred years aga

We find, then, that these gifts did not close with the Apostolic Age, but about the
fourth century, when the Church became corrupt and the Dark Ages set in. When Mar-
tin Luther came out from this corruption, he did not seek to re-establish these manifesta-
tions ; he was content to feed upon a past inspiration, and not to seek a fresh light
There are those, to-day, who see and converse with spirits, — those who become en-
tranced and see spiritual beings. Was it not true eighteen hundred, and thousands, of
years ago?

But, you say, we can have nothing to do with these things because the medium^ go
into a trance. At the time of the transfiguration of Christ, upon mount Tabor, there
were Peter and James and John who went upon the mount; and while asleep, and in a
trance, they saw Moses and Elias talking with Christ Here, then, while entranced,
they saw two spiritual beings. Paul, on his way to Damascus, —

[The speaker's time here expired.]

The gentleman asked me a question that has been asked millions of times, Ad which
I certainly cannot answer; and that is, why God has done thus, and why God has done
so, and why he did not do thus and so. I know not why it is that God has given a reve-
lation at one time and not at another, why it was that he saw fit to introduce the Patri-
archal, then the Mosaic, then the Christian System. I do not know. I do not know
why he had miracles in those ancient times, and does not see fit to have them now ; nor
do I know why he made the heavens and the earth, and why he made them as he has.
** Who, by searching, can find out God ? ** The first step^ in scientific investigation, is
not to find out why God does what he does, but to find out what he has done ; and
when we know he has done it, that is enough ; his reasons are in his own mind, and
he has not seen fit to communicate them to us, — and even if he had, there is not the
least probability that we could understand them. It seems as if, in mercy to our na^
ture, he has given us just enough knowledge to enable us to perform our duties, and no
more. He has seen fit that the world should progress; and as the world progresses,
more and more light shall pour in upon it, in his own way and in his own time. We
have not to question, why does the Judge of all the earth do this or that The quea-
tion is, — what does he ?

Then, as regards St PauL St Paul rebuked the Spiritualism that existed in his day.
I would, if I might with the same power, rebuke it here, now. The same kind of super-
stition that exists here, now, Paul witnessed. When he was travelling he came among
the ancient Greeks, and saw that they had built three thousand statues and temples,
more costly than any churches you have at present He walked among those statues
and temples of the gods, — he stood upon Mars Hill, and said, ** Te men of Athens, I per-
ceive that in all things ye are too superstitious." For, ^mth all their go4|, there were
some phenomena of nature which they did not know to what god to attribute. They
did not know what caused the lightning, and it was Jove ; or what the tempest, and it
was Neptune ; or who caused the eruptions of Vesuvius, and that was Vulcan, who had
a spiritual blacksmith's shop there. Then, to account for those unappropriated phenom-
ena, they erected an altar to the Unknown God. And, standing by that altar, Paul
mid unto them: —

• •

14 DisoBaaiON or stibitvalisic between

;"Ten0apf AttM|is»IpeveeiT«that in aH tldngy 7« an too Mpenttfeknit. FotM I poned by Mid KbIhU
your d^otions, I fimnd an alter wilh thip insciiptioii. To vox UnurowH Oos. Whom tbne«fl»» y« ignanntij
woiship, Um deeUure 1 unto yon. €k>d that made the worid, and all things therein, seeing that he ia Lord of
Yasfvik and ^mtHI) diPrilfth itt templetf xM made with liands; uelUler is woMhipped with mta'S hands, a*
thOQi^ he needed any thing, sedng he giTeth to all, lift, and breath, and all things.''

' To Him it was thAt tie referred, and not to Nature. This gentleman refers to Nattire,
and says tliat God does nothing except bjr these fixed laws. According to his idea,
Grod himself, as some of those ancient heatheii believed, was the slave of Natare, in-
stead of being its Master and Creator. That is the idea of modem Spiritualism, — that
God sits thei*e, an impotent omnipotence,-^insteadof the Christian belief, that God
made heaven and earth, and all that in them is.

Now, one word in regard to miracles. If they had miracles in the ancient times of the
Bible, why Hot have them now ? — is the law abrogated ? The gentleman says we do
h&ve them now ; I say^ we do not. That is the gist of the Whole matter. He asks why
God has seen fit to suspend them. I don't know. God knows, and that is enoagh for us
to kaoWi Why he did it, he has not seen fit to tell us. That he has suspended them,
all nature proclaims, throughout all her works. If there were miracles now, who, think
you, would be most likely to find them ? Would not those professors of Harvard Col-
lege, be the most likely to discover them ? If there had been a miracle, would not Pro-
fessor Agassiz, a man so deeply learned in all the science of bugs and shells, have found
it f The i^entleman says they had miracles in Bible time& He did not see fit to com-
ment upon the. stopping of the sun in its progress, or the raiang of the dead. He seemed
to think it would be a little difficult to ^' get up the conditions *' now. I think it would.
I had been laboring under the delusion that the age of miracles was past. The whole
Christian Church has been laboring under that mistake. The gentleman says we are
mistaken. No man can be more glad than I ; for I should be delighted to see a miracle.
If there be any more mir&cles, may I be there to see. Don't darken the room. I am
perfectly willing — what man on the earth would not be ? -^ to see a miracle. Who
would not ipve half his life to see it ? And yet this gentleman talks as if the whole
Christian wcMrld were shutting their eyes for fear they should see a repetition of these
miracles of olden times. He sees it Thousands are having these communications ; only
these stupid, blind, prejudiced Chr^ians are so ^ undeveloped ** that they are unable
to see the miracles taking place around us. My ground is, that miracles did take place
in the era of Bible history, that spirits did really appear. I am not a biblical critic ;
I any not going to dispute with the Adventists, who hold that spirits never did really
appear. But I take the Bible, and, taking plain common sense as an interpreter, I find
it full of miracles from one end to the other, — contradicting nature and overturning
the laws of nature. Is that done now ? The gentleman does not prelend it. The
doctrine of the Spiritualists, on that subject^ is that these miracles are the manifesta-
tions of spirits. Why will not some of these obliging sjnrits, since they have your
trance-mediums talking such indescribable nonsbnse as they do, pouring out their hifal-
utin poetical blarney, by the two hours together^ till you are aknost tired to heai^
it, — why will they not give us a little sense, give us some useful information,
and do some^ing beside tipping tables and supplying quack-doctors with money?
Why will not some benevdent spint like St Paul,, so anxious to do good and stop these
injudicious inanifestations, when living, come and do the same good now ? Why does
not Swedenborg,^ who said, and whose followers say, that he communicated with the
spirit-world — I don't know whether ho did or not — why does not he come here and
give us some valuable informatioil upon the '* conditions" of ancient spiritual inter-
course ? The Btrong desire of our spiritual nature makes every one ask for such aatii-

UO lIIIiI.BS AMD PBOr. «BI1IU.

li

I

) ;
t

"r

fMatiQfDfl ; and tliere is bo nun so iensnal ihsft he will not stait up witk jof if he cAn
fanve the hope of conTening with one who haa come, as 'Shaki^eaie has it, — «nd no
man knew human nature so well, — from **that bourne from which no traveller re*
tttxns." And it is to be noted that in yeiy many of Shakspeare's plays, he mtrodncef
characters — Hamlet, Bichard, Macbeth — who thought that they were holding coiw
YBise with the spirits of the dead, and yet he speaks of that bourne from which no*
traveller returns. I wish to call the very special attention of my friend to this pcnnt
as to the Bible, because it is one which we shall come to again and again, and I have
been waiting to see the gentleman come to it It is a c<nnmon argument with Spirit-
ualists, the moment they find they are talking with a man who professes to believe in
the Bible, as I confess I do^ — that same old Bible which the Spiritualists think so
fidlible. They believe in it ; oh, yes ! they bdieve in it as General Jac^cson believed in
the Constitution — he believed in it as he understood it! They believe in the BiUe
just so far as it suits ihem, just while it gratifies their pasrions ; but the moment it
ptmishes their sins, they don't believe in it. When I was lecturing in Taunton, and
said, in the course of my lecture, that the Spiritualists did not believe the Bible, Mrs.
Carrier, speaking under the influence of St Somebody, rose up, and, she being a great,
strong person, I know enough not to attempt to stop a woman, especially as her own
soul had been ousted by some intruding, ^rit who had no right to be in there. This
qnrit interrupted me : ''The gentleman, in his lecture, said The Spiritualists do not
believe the Bible : — it is a lie ! we do believe the Bible." I rose and apologized, and
aaid I didn't know it, — I had read their books, and heard their lectures, and, judging
fimn them, I supposed they did not believe the Bible. The audienco took the joke
aiid began to laugh ; and she felt the point, and rose to explain.
[The allotted twenty minutes here expired.]

I beg to remind my brother that the question before us tiiis evening, is not, whether
the Bible is true or false. That the gentleman knows there is a prejudice to which he
can appeal, is very evident; and that he has taken pains to appeal to that gram of
prejudice which exists in the public, is very clear to every mind. Let him confine him*
self to the argument upon the question. This Bible is my own, and I have as much
right to quote it as I have to quote l^akspeai^ and have just as much right to my
views, in reference to the Bible, as he has to his. And I would say, again, that every
%irituali8t does believe that the Bible contains inspiration. That which is spumed by
IJpirilualists, is the idea of infhllible inspiration. So long as man is imperfect, so long will
the ini^iration he receives partake, m^re or less, of his imperf^tions. And the great
mischief arises from receiving this as infallible inspiration. The great mischief is, that
men quote the Bible to suppmt error. The davehoider quotes it, as an infallible boc^,
to support slavery ; Br%ham Young quotes the Bible to support polygam}-. And al-
low me to say, good fiiends, that he who has the most error to support, he who has h
system of oppression, or the divine right of kii^ to support, always quotes the Bible.
B«t he who has truth to utter very seldom appeals to it as infallible authority. Wo
difi^ in our views in regard to what constitutes inspiMitioni

And now, in regard to the nnracles, so called^ recorded iA the Wo^ I would re-^
nnnd my brother, and the audience, that a very large and respectable pottion of the
theriogicid world have oomo to the conclusioil that all txitiracles are in accordance with
the laws of nature The idea of God being a lawless being, working without law, re-
gaidless of law ! That ^e world has M^u into the id^ that he is abote the laws of

16 Discusaiov OF sfibitdalism betwsex

nalnre, plainly arose from its want of knowledge c£ those laws. When a celebrated
Gennan scholar told the king ^f Siam, that water congealed and became so solid that
jok elephant might walk upon it without its breaking, — said the king of Siam, That m
impoBBible ; I cannot believe it. He had had no experience ; it seemed, to him, against
the laws of nature. There was a time, when, if we had been told that a train of can
could be whirled along at the rate of thirty miles an hour, we should have pronounced
it impossible, and contrary to the laws of Nature. Yet, now, nothing is more familiar.
And so, if we come to eiLamine the wonders recorded in the Bible, we shall find them in
perfect accordance with the laws of nature, and not above them.

The gentleman wants us to tell if Spiritualism can stop the sun. Does he, or any in*
telligent man, believe that the system of the worlds was stopped to enable Joshua to
conquer in that battle ? I supposed it was generally understood that it was simply in-
tended, in the Bible, that the armies of Joshua were represented by banners, with em-
Mems, and that upon one of these was the sun, and upon anotlier the moon, perhaps
upon another a sword ; and that he caused the army which went under the banner of
the moon to stop in the valley of Ajalon, and that which went under the emblem of the
sun to rest in another place. Can it be possible that the infinite God caused this earth,
revolving at the rate of a thousand miles an hour, pas«ng through space at the rate
of a thousand miles a minute, to be stopped in its revolution ? No sane man can be-
lieve this for a moment.

And now, in r^ard to the raising of Lazarus. The Bible expressly declares that he
was not dead, but slept. They said to Jesus that Lazarus was dead, and ho replied,
^ He is not dead, but sleepeth." When he could not impress upon their minds that
Lazarus was in a trance, he allowed their idea that Lazarus was dead, to prevail. If
Lazarus was really dead, why did Jesus contradict them at all ? Now, that individuals
have, in our own days, been restored from long trances, in which they were, apparently,
dead, is a notorious fact

As to the ^* dark circles," — we might give high prcicedents of dark circles. The
circle on Mount Tabor, when Jesus talked with Moses and Elias, was in the night.
The stone was rolled away from the sepulchre, in the night ; Peter was led out of the
prison, in the night ; and we might enumerate many other manifestations that occurred
in the hours of darkness. Jesus Christ directs us, when we pray, to go into our closet,
and shut the door. You have to conform to conditions^ You get up your prayer^
meetings ; a few congenial soub meet together, and their sfHrits go out in rapport
with those spiritual beings around them. Let a scofier, let a sceptic, come in, one who
ridicules and denounces, and away goes the spuit of worship. Do they feci as be\
fi>re ? You disturb the conditions. Why, an '^ anxious seat" is indispensable to a re-
TivaL To a psychological subject, you say, — '* Be passive, be quiet, don't laugh, look
steadily at your hands." He must conform to the conditions.

Now, my friends, I wish to show you that the cases recorded in the Bible, and those
of the present day, are analogous. There are at least twenty thousand mediums, in the
United States, who daily see and converse with spirits. Do you reject their testimony ?
. Jacob declares he saw spiritual beings. At night he beheld a ladder let down out of
heaven, and angels ascending and descending. I must receive that testimony. If I
reject it, I am a heretic. I am an infidel if I do not believe that that ladder has been
removed, so that no more angels can come down. There are mediums, to-day, who
give the same testimony : and I ask, is not their testimony reliable ? When Paul was
on hb way to Damascus, suddenly his external senses were dint up, and, with hb eyes
elosed, he saw Christ There were two men with hun, who did not see Christ Mjr

y- JMO MlLXiXB AXXy FROF^ GSllCSS. IT'

Opponent tells us that you have to go lo i^t€ip, to see spirits : now why does lie not reject
this ? why does he not believe that Paul was asleep ? Paul came into Damascus, blind,
led by the hand. What a figure must the learned Saul, whom my friend would now
ridicule as a trance-medium asleep, —^ what a figure must he have cut! The spirit
directed Ananias to go to Saul and open his eyes. He was a sceptic, and resisted the
influence ; but he obeyed the vision, went to Saul, and a manifestation was produced.
When the eyes of Paul were to be opened, they found it necessary to bring a medium,
there, who could exert an influence upon him ; else the mission of the Damascene disciple
to him was a mere &rce. Ananias ran out to meet him, and, doubtless, made ridiculous
manipulations over him, and cured lum. And again, when Paul was on his knees, trem*
bling and astonished, there suddenly shone round about him a light from heaven. He fell
to the earth ; and while on his knees, he heard, in a trance, the voice of Christ, saying,
'* Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me ? " Even Christ could not speak to Paul until th^
external senses of Paul were closed. Again, Paul saw a vision of the third heavens. He
says he saw such things that it would be unwise to mention them to those around him.
And yet, he says he does not know whether he saw ^ese things in the body or out of
the body. Suppose the medium who spoke in this hall last night, had declared that she
had a view of the spirit-wwld, that she had seen it clearly, and, at the same time, had
declared she did not know whether, when she beheld it, she was in the body or out of
the body ; would it not have become a sulject of riditule to my brother ? Was not
John, in Patmos, in a trance ? and will not my brother say that the communication, to
him, of his Revelations, was a miracle ? You talk of God performing these miracles.
It was a spiritual being that rolled the stone from the door oi the sepulchre. It was aai
angel that broke the fetters of Paul and opened the prison doors and let him go fortli.
It was an angel that taught the Revelation to John ; but when John sought to worship
hnn, the angel said, ** Siee thou do it not ; for I am thy fellowHservant, and of thy breth*'
ren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book : wcxrship God."
There are thpse to-day who have averred that they have seen spirits, and have con-
vened with them. Will you reject this testimony V The same law governed the an-
cient manifestations, that governs these, to-day.

A fow weeks ago, for the first time, I visited the city of Boston. I went to Nepon-
set, and called upon Mr. Southworth, a gentleman of the place. He was a stranger tO'
me; it was the first time I had ever met hun. His daughter, a girl of fifteen years of
age^ who could not have known any tiling of my sister in the spiritrworld, saikd, — ^ I
see a spiritual being here, and from the relation she seems to bear to you, she appears
to be a aster." She described the appearance as accurately as I could have dcme, my-
self; and said) — "< Over her head I see a name." She spelt it out, slowly, — L-u-c-y.
I know, as well as I know any tlung in the worid, that that girl had never seen my si»-
ter. Will I doubt this testimony, and receive that of men who lived eighteen hundred
years ago ? No, my friends, I cannot

But the gentleman says it is not for him to decide or determine why God has changed
the ancient order of things, under which miracles were produced. Let him first show
that the Almighty has changed it I say he never has repealed the law, or revoked
it; and when the gentleman says it thas been repealed, it is a bare assumption, without
one particle of truth. I. say, it did measurably cease^ for the reason that man became
corrupt and vicious, not because God h^d refiised to permit the sequence of the same
effects under the same obndition. Christ says, — ** These signs shall follow — "

[The speaker's time ex|Hred.]

2

Itx Discirsaiex (» umaxvAMjmi BEvmxN

I was spea&ing about that woman «-^

Mr. Mxllke. — WiM my biother UJk to the questimi, and let the wonungo?

Hb. GietMBS.--^Ob, ho; you fipinCnalifltB Aire jliMi as Ibndof th» irotten a? I am.
"Whjy eyeryfoody in this sadlence fceiews ^at I have spokea to tbef question as elosdy a»
be has, -^ if I hare sense enoogh to understand it. Did I not vpeA tc^ the question, when
laaid '^If the law has not Ranged, ST we have the same ttianiiestations now, let us
have them. It «eems to me that is to the pdnt. I gave a reason why we tlo not have
tiiem now ;-^ that the Creator, f&r reasens hest kncrwn to hhnself, has seen fit to suspend
the nxanifestataon of those miitteles. ifl am wrong, I am glad to know it ; fcfc I hai^
a curious desire to see them. He gives us no reason why we should not have tiiem.
^en let us have them. And I say timt "Siat is the very question before us. AH turns
U|iOn that.

17ow, in regatd to that wqpactan. I was speaking about belief in ^e Bible, — that
Stttritualists do not believe in the Bible as Christians understand believing in the BiUe;
ftrr it is the vcfriest &rce to say th^ believe in the Bible, and then treat it in a man-
lier—

Mb. Miller. — Will the gentleman please to discuss this question with me ? I siqr
I receive the Bible as a record of past inspiration.'

Mr. GfRiSMES. -^ Yes, he believes in inspiration, and i ufcp i wUk m meafisnotfaang at dL
According to the Spiritualist idea, I am inspired now. Joe Smith was in^iired, ttad
everybody that gets a crooked idea into his head is inspired. They say liie Bible is an
inspired book, and then d^rade the Bible '1^ saying that every man who has a notion
in his head, and runs about preaching it, is inspired ; that the BiUe is reliaUe, to km
sure, and inspired to be sure, but that there is oozing reliable in it mere than in «n
old almanac.

. Now, I may retnm to that woman, again. When I was lecturing in Taunton, and
this woman interrupted me, and said that I lied, because I stated the Spiritualists did
not believe in the Bible, and when I had apolo^zed, — she, finding that the audience
were a little against her, arose, and explained. She said, '^ We do believe in the Bible,
in this way, — so much of the Bible as is true we believe to be true, and so much of
it as is fiilse, we believe to be false;* — and in that way we believe the whole of it^
in that way she believed in the Bible ! and that is the sense in which Spiritualists be-
lieve in the Bible. They believe it to be iallible ; they believe it to contain falseiiood.
They do not believe it to be a proper guide to our feet and lamp to our path. They
believe diat the patriarch Abraham -was a respectable old gentleman who knew a good
ideal fi>r his time, — that Moses was more ^' progressed,*'— that Christ was more pro-
gnessed than Moses, and that Andrew Jackson Davis and the Fox giris have gone
abeadof the whdie — the Bible is inspired, but the Fox girls are more inq)ired. If
I do injustice, no one is more capable, as you have seen, of showing it, than the ^eikks-
man, who is as much inspired as ik» rest of them.

The gendennm tells us the miracles stopped, in thoee ^ark ages, because the Cbnidi
became so corrupt And mark how the miracles began again. It was when some part
of the people in this lower wortd got over corruption, and became enlightened, and pn*
rified. And the Fox gh-ls were the first Only think of it! They were the firatlhstt
had emer;ged from thb mass of corruption which had been gadiering for so many oen-

LSO IflLtSB A3m PBOV. QKOtMB, 19 '

tme$. And <^ Fox girls, and Andrew Jackflon Dayis, and otlier gentfctiiieB and
ladies — j^u kskotw wbo and what Ihe Spiritualisls are, — have emne out hom the Chris*
tiaa (^orch, as it has been so corrupt, and are beeome better and purer than anybody
else I lh» is the gentleman^ position, mark you. Is it not excellent ? He gives as a
reason ^why the miracles were suspended, the deterioration and ocnrmption of the Church I
And BOW, of conrse, by the same reasoning, the miraeles have been again given for tiie '
reason that the world has become purified. And, furthermore, the purest, of cosme, '
most be most capaUe of receiving tbese manifestations. But our scieidifie men, oiff
professors at Harvard, were so degraded and ocmnpt in intellect and morals, that no
n^faty works oould .be done, in tirair presence, \jf the Fox giris, and the Davenp(»t
boys, led on by my friend, here.

Dr. Gabdner made a remark to the speaker, in a low voice.

Mb. Grimes. — Yes, the raps were made, but that was because they were not socor-
rupt on the floor.

The gentleman talks about reasoning Scorn antecedent probabiSty. Bmt is there any
one, with common sense, who does not feel that^t is infinitely imprdbable diat the whole
Christilai Chureh is so teiriUy oormpt, that the professors of Harvard College are so
corrupt, while here, in this temple where purity xeigns, the manifest^Ktioos can ap>
pear? IHiat is aot probable ; and yon know it '^

One word, now, in i^^ard to tbe gentleman's comment upon Aat miMi^-^thfil; it
was XMt at all likely that the Deity would stop Ihe revolntion of this world, whea it waa
gqix^ so fast, — a thousand miles aa hour, on die snrfEU^e, beside going at the rate of ..
fflx)t;y-e%ht thoqsand miles, in its oMt It was not likely, the geiytieman said, that God
would £to{> that; tilie speed was altogether too great ; it was too moeh trouble; and .
tins xteodered it improbalde that the Almighty wonld stop it for any such reason as that .
assigned. That Ni to illustrate the very idea I charged upon the gentleman, — that ha •
made God the creature of law. What is a law ? Does it not imply (he lawgiver ? Is
not a lair as much the wocic of Nature's God, as a man, or a planet ? What is eaith,
to that Almig^t^ Bi^ng ? Let my friend go out and survey the bright heavens abova
him, let him thiak how little, miserable a thing this woidd is, how many mSlions of miL> ..
lions of worlds stretch through space, and then iliink how much it wonld be, for the Gra» .
ator of Ihese numberless systems, to stop the roUii^ of, this little baO. It is not likely
he would do any thing so stupendous as to stop that inodon, and produce -—the g«ndb>
man says — a discord I

Qe says, again, a miracle, as I eiai^ the term, is the setting aside of a law. I agree ^
to it, but not in the sense which he intends. The great Creator gave laws to every thing; -
and when he p^Efoims a miracle, k is a higher and additional law proceeding freaa the .
saopie lawgiver. In that sense, only, is the csrdinazy eofu-se of things a law. The will >
of Qpd Js the law to the whole cceati<ni.

A word upon one other point When I spdce of the nnracles of the Bible, die gen-
tl^nan proceeded to explain them alL It could be easily Aown that there was no sua
and mean stopped,-— that what was meant by the sun and moon, was a mere inserip*> .
tioapn a banner. Hie did not point out any passage of Scripture, or ai^y evidence
whatajrer, that the ancient Jews earned any banner wtdi the emblem of the sun or tha .
mpoia. J ^Uvrnk ^^kdii was not theis bannec. The J^ws never so employed the emfalema -
oftjiQ^RP^andmoon. Thatwasa Mahometan idea, —r that was origkwted afterwaid.
Th0iiim>ai4inoan,aad.haniier jftd aU, flpraagfrsmhisownim^^
e^m imn» h^ I fitmlA Ha aayi all Aese miracles in tha

•\

20 DISCUSflXOK or WrnUTUALlSM &ETWBEK

Bible are easily explained. But when yotrcome to the manifestations which the S][w-
itnalisti have got up, and ask them to explain^ they will tell you* they are mysteries
which they cannot explain; and when you tell them that you don't believe there are
tables raised and bells rung, because it is against the lawd of nature, the gentleman
makes it out all very plain : — " Oh, you can't understand it ; there are a great many
things you cannot understand:" and they forget, all the time, to use this same reascm-
ingin the case of the Bible. ■

I do not deny S^Mntualism because I cannot understand it, or because I think i^ is
improbable. . I do not deny that the tables may rise ; I do not deny that spirits may
come here and communicate. I do not deny it, at all, — only, I want to see it I pro-
test against their letting a favored few see these wonderful things, while I cannot see
them.

I am sorry, indeed, that my brother seems forced to bring in a side issue. The ques-
tion of the &llilMlity (xr infallibility of the Bible is not the question for us to discuss. It
has been dragged in as a side issue. He has not even attempted to show wherein the
analogy between ancient spiritual manifestations and those of to-day fidls. He has
passed it slightly by, though I endeavored to show that the two are similar and analo-
gous. He wastes many minutes in relating what some lady said in regard to the Bible,
and spends much time in talking about the sun and moon standing still. Now, I might
tell my brother, if I could put on the face, that I dcm't deny that the sun and moon
stood still, but I want to see it I will not deny that the dead are resurrected ; but I
want to see it Has my brother any precedent, in Revelation, where the divinely in-
spired man came forward and demonstrated hia inspiration before sceptics ? Did Paul,
in the ]»resence of his judges, perform miracles ? Did he there heal the blind, and
cause the lame to walk ? The Jews said they would not take the testimony of others.
Christ said that human testimony was reliable, and rebuked them because, others hav-
ing testified to what they had seen of his worics, they did not believe. They said, ** Let
him now come down i^m the cross, and we will believe." I don't think it was of in-
finite importance that they should believe, nor that my brother shall ; and if I have seen
and he has not, the difference is, that I have and he has not

He says that Spiritualists have become pure-minded. I will not say, here, whether
they are pure, or not ; yet I will say this, which is to die p(Hnt, that among the churches
they do not seek to have these gifts. There never can be a supply until there is a de-
mand. Christ says, ^' Knock, and it shall be opened unto you ; seek, and ye shall find."
When they go about seeking it, they will get manifestations. The manifestations will
occur to-day, as they did in olden time : but the churches pride themselves on their dig-
nity, on their fine chapels and high steeples, upon their popularity and self-righteous-
ness, while Spiritualism comes up obscurely, — bom in a lowly family — as the Go^l
Dispensation was bom in a manger, in the presence of four-footed beasts. There are
many men and women whom you may stigmatize, who desire communication with
sfMntual beings. Now, it seems to me more reasonable that my mother, who has, as
Christians say, become like the angels of heaven, r- it seems to me more reasonaUe that
she should come to communicate to me than that God should cause the sun and moon to
stand still, that they might give light to a lot of poor devils to buteher each other by.
And it seems to me much more reasonable to believe the one, on living evidence, than to
believe the other, on the testimony of some man, — we don't know whom. When Christ
waa Inouj^ befere Fontiiis FUate^ lie prodneed no mirades as evidence of his misBOQ.

LBO MILLBB AND PBOF. GRUfBS. 21

None of the apoetles ever produced a hct when the troth of their doctrine was dis-
puted. The manifestations produced by Christ were, as regarded the time and place
of their occurrence, incidental, — not got up for any special occanon, but called
forth by the circumstances in which he found himself placed.

Said he had understood that the additional fire minutes aOowed to each speaker, at
tlie dose of the evening's debate, was for explanation, only. He would, therefore,
simply call attention to the remarks a£ Mr. AfiUer in regard to the probability of the
trudi of certain miracles recorded in the Bible.

Tbe gentleman (Prof Grimes proceeded) thinks it much more probable that his &iend
in the other world should converse with him than that Grod should cause the sun and
moon to stand still to assist the victory of Joshua. He began by saying he believed in
the Bible ; I tdd him how glad I was to hear it ; and he winds up by sneering at it —
not at all probable that Grod would stop the sun while poor devils should do this and
that

Mr. Miller. — I think the more reasonable, and best interpretation, put upon it, is
ihat, instead of stopping the sun and moon, the armies were commanded to halL I do
not sneer at it I prefer that interpretation. If you tell me that the Bible teaches the
doctrine of infant danmation, I do rqject it.

Mr. Grimes. — That is the sum of his belief, — what I think reasonable, I believe,
and what is not reasonable, I sneer at He doesn't believe in the Bible, fbrther Hasa h
agrees with his views.

Mr. Miller. — Am I to take my interpretation or yonn ?

The discussion, for the evening here closed.

Si DiaeUBSXOK.OF spirixualibm. bbtween

Mjiag, ** Saul, Saul, why pexseoutest tbou me ? " The Christian world brand me as' an
infidel, if I reject the tedtimony of Pa)Ul ; and yet, here are equally reliable witnesseif
vho testify that they have heard the voice of a spiiit. . ^ .

' Let me give you another instance, of the voices that ha^e been heard. In the village of
Madison, New York, resides Noah Tyler, a well-to-do farmer. Some ye^rs ago, on a
lu)ty sultry day, while upon his way to market, he was attacked by apoplexy. He fell
back in the wagon, and the horse stopped ; and, being alone, he remained there in that
condition for nearly hal" an hour. Hevsays he felt he was dying; ho could not more
an arm or a finger. One of the neighbors came along, and, seeing him in that condition,
got into the wagon and drove to Mr. Tyler's honse. Neighbors came in, expecting,
every moment, to see him breathe his last Mrs. T}ler told me that if she ever prayed in
her heartj it was then, that a healing medium might be sent, and that her husband
might be restored. Christ says : ^ If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye
ihall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." Sixteen miles from Madison, in the
Tillage of jE^arlville, resides Mr. Potter, a philanthropist^ and a prosperous fanner. JBe
is accustomed t6 hearing voices, which are audible ; and those in his presence, ofl^
hear voices, and look to see whence they come. He told me that he was engaged in the
barns, about half-past nine, which was the time when Mr. Tyler was carried into his
house, in a dying ccmditien. Mr. Potter was engaged in cutting his hay. He heard a
Toice say, — :**Mrs. Tyler wants you." He answered, audibly, "Tell Mrs. Tyler that' J
will go there." When be came to himself he thought the spirit wanted to trifle with
him, and he would not go. . He heard the voice again^ and said, — "I will go." Taking
his carriage, and his wife with him, he drove sixteen miles, on a hot, sultry day, over
the hills. The neighbors^ thought htm mad; for he was4>bl^ed.to whip the horses, and
put them in foam. When he arrived he asked, — ^ " Why am I sent here 2 " Mrs. Tyler
said, — *^ Good angels have sent you." . He became entranced, and formed a circle of the
neighbors, had them join hands and take hdld o£ the hands of the dying man. He laid
bands upon the dying man, who, in a short time recovered. The point to. which I wish to
call attention is not the curing of the disease. But, I ask, what vdce was that which
wpoke to Mr. Potter upon his farm ? He has given ^undreds of dollars, to clothe the poor,
and feed the naked ; and every man in the vicinity thinks bim reliable, and an honest
and upright man. Can you, as intelligent persons, receiving human testimony to
establish facts, reject that testimony ?

Mrs. Gerritt Smith told me, last summer, that if she ever heard her boy's voice in this
"world, she had heard it since he was in the sjnrit-land ; that if she had shaken hands
with and kissed that boy in the flesh, she had shaken bis hand and kissed him since he
had passed into the spirit-world. Can we reject the testimony of so estimable a lady,
who lives to-day, and may be interrogated ? Must I refuse .to receive that, and go back
and receive the testimony of persons who Hved thousands of years ego? No, my
friends ; we cannot, in honesty or integrity. If my brother has not seen these things,
it matters not. It is a rule of evidence that, if o»e &ir witness testifies to what he has
■efen and known, it will outweigh any number of witnesses who have not seen the same
things. Christ considered that human testimony was suflicient to establish a fact. The
Jews of his day, said to hun, — Come down frqfa, the cross, and do your miracles in
our presence, and we will believe ; yon always do these things in ihe presence of yoiir
immediate followers. And I would remark, that Christ and his apostles never :pn>*
dnced any of their manifestations to satisfy the . unbelieving or incredidons ; but all of
the miracles of Christ -—and I speak of miraclss only as the manifestatioDs of the epip*
itoal aatore — all the miraeles of Chntt were tamely incidental lo his teaching. Them

IiXO KUrLBR AlID P|KOF. OUMSSi, IS

I» human tettimoiiy reliable ? Whj, dear frienda, in all the eventa of Ufe, we
oU^ed to rely upon human testimony, in receiving nino-tendu of all our informatiaii*
We cannot reject human testimony. The Chriadan Churoh has said ^t we are^ fli
eand<Hr and reason, bound to receive the testimony of individuals, upon which their
seligion is founded.

Do i^irits hold intercourse with mortals ? Have they returned and established thup
identity ? I say we hanre as positive proof of their identity, as we have of that of
individuals whom we do not see and who are not immediately present Is it possiUa
t» establish the identity of an individual from his handwritii^ ? It is a matter of Immh
ness, every day, in our courts, to establish the identity of individuals from the hand*
writing. A or B has signed a note, and some one testifies^that that is his handwritiBgi
and thb is considered sufficient evidence to take away, upon it, the rights and properly
of the person. Do spirits establish their identity by their handwriting ? Hundreds of
instances of it have been given, even through little children, who could not write ; and
who knew nothing of the persons whose signatures were given hy their hands. Mr. and
Mrs. Hamlin, of Madison, Madison County, in the State of New York, have a daughter
who, before she could form a single letter, would, under the influence of an invisible intel-
ligence, write out medical preseriptions and give the signatures of persons who haw
passed on into the spirit-wcM-kL ' And shrewd, strong-minded men have seen that littlo
gill write, and, as ikty have rec<^ized the handwriting of a partner in business, a
brother, or a wife, they have turned pale, and their knees have shaken at the sight.

Are individuals identified by their voices ?« A crime b committed in the dark, and a
BBan comes into court and testifies that he knows the guilty party by his voice. Do
ipirits give such tests? Yes> there' are hcmdreds who have heard Uie voices of their
departed friends, fiaom mediums. If I have heard the v<Mce of my modier in life, |
have heard it firom her spirit, through a medium.

Are individuals identified fay theur appearance. Tes : and upon such ideatificadoa
alone, a man's liberty, hia rights, perhaps his life, are forfeited. Do spirits return, aaad
thus establish their identity ? There are at least twenty thousand mediums in the United
States, who see spirits and describe ^em so accurately that those sitting around, reeog^
niae the description as true. I gave one incident last evening, -^ that, when I fifsl
oame to the city of Boston, I had occapion to call at Neponset, and that a daughtes
of the gentleman upon whom I called, saw, and described to me there, my nster, wfa9
had been for years in the 4>irit-world. Spirits have returned, and identified them-
selves, and reached every sense that possibly -can be readied, in estaUishnig their
idendty.

Let me, here, give two or three instances er the preseaoe of intelligent beings not ot
tfiia world. We shall come, presently, to speak of eases which are more to the point
Last sabbath, I was in Taunton. Mrs. Willard Tripp told me that, ^- last summer, i
tUnk it was, — she made a mental request that a certain gentleman should visit there
i^n a certain Friday. H. T. Fairfidd was intending to stc^ in Taunton on the salw
bath» It was his intealioa to go there on Saturday. He was in his home at Greenwich
There was company at the house of Mrs. Tripp, in Taunton, and they desired to aen
ham. She mentally requested a spir^firitmd to go and tell h^ to come on Fridayv*
He solemnly avf rs, that, whiie ei^aged in his business, a- voice came to his interior
miad*'^ ^ Go to Tasuntan to^iorrow : you am wanted.*^ His mother said, -"^^^ Why no(j
wait till Saturday 9" >' They have asnt for me;* he replied, ^a spirit has sent for ani*
to go." He dki go; and vrhem he met Mrs. lVipp,ait the dooif, she asked why he came^
andhe attswered,"<^**Tbnaeatfi>r friie*"- Bsol, en h;^ way to Damaseua, heard a voioey

Tkey tdl us we cftti get wine ftom watei^, if im» okd^ had the odB<^tkm8; IFjr friend
Mr. Loogwood would have to lote bumnea^ if that were frve. Wd wdald hare the C»-
tiWbe comiiig down thpo«gh the streets-^ the Lieene Ism would not be of nrach use.
Now, I deny that any power but the direct power of God cam produce a nHracle— ^ea»
taise the dead. The gentleman says Lazarus was asleep, not dead. Was Jesus Christ
asleep, when he rose and went into hearen ? What were the conditions for raising
Christ ? What are the conditions necessary, that a man may be born of a virgin, and,
aAer death go to heaven —-or to the other place — and return ? For, according to his
itoy, ^U we have to do is to fix up a few conditions, and we can have it So much for
titat reply that I did not make : — I hope I have made it, now.

Another point was made : that the only reasoif no miracles occurred after the fourth
century, was, because the Church became so sensual, licentious, corrupt. And I made a !
reply to that, to which he has not seen fit to allude — that, taking the doctrine and
cariying it out, so corrupt has been the Church and the world, that these mighty works
ooidd not be done nntil now, when we have come upon the age of Andrew Jackson!
Davis, and the Fox girls, and the Davenport boys, who are so pare that we can have
the miracles again. I wondered at the gentleman's recafMtnlating that. I should haiv^
supposed he would have kept still about any thing which exposes them so much. li
would seem that the modem Spiritualists are Hke the manured field -^ the more filthy
the manure is, the more beautiful the products are. Why, I hove too much respe^ for
the feefings of the Spiritualists, I pity them too much, to even give the briefest acootmti
of the purity of their Church. The corruption of the fourth century ! If it sarpasBea
tiiat of your Spiritual Church, then I have not read your history aright, — and, indeed^
I am not going into it for the present, for fear it will do you mneh injustice ; but if ftm
wge it very hard, I may produce it at seme future time : it is on the recoid, and I wffl
not go beyond those records.

Then the gentleman befanwhat he cafied his dh^det proof. Last nigfat, he oiAy
ihewed the probability. Why 1 if' there was «f«r any thing improvable, on the face ef
tiie earth, it is, a priori, that there e^ioold oe any suck thing» as the modem sjHritiial
ttanifestations. The question Before this meeting is not, whether there are ^ibttual
aoaunanications^ whether the beings who hav^e departed do semetimes cdmmmncate
iri& beings in this worid« Bvery ChristiaB, except some of the Adventists, admits
it, admits that spirits cemmu!i*oa(ed> ni ancient times, as recorded in ihe Bible. The
yuestibn is, whetheir f^nrits oomnanicate as (aught hyike SpirUuedigts, in the way atid
tnanner they pretend. Now, look at the prebslilit^. if k probal4e, at f^, that tins
VMideni Spiritualism would havo begun in the way Hi^y say it did P What was this
bcgkining ? Who was the first medium? It ha]f^>eMd in Pooghkeepeie, a Dutch town
hi the State of New York. The medium WSb Andrew Jackson Davis, an ignorant boy,
vlio knew less than other boys in his village^ He was so pure, -*• and he was pure, I
HM giv» him the credit for that *— he was perfostfy ianocett«-^he had na viice, nor had
lie MtKj knowledge/either, aay aoora ihaa jvsS «bp8pu^ to enable ban to live and keep
imai fitaifTation-^'Ua head Was etnpty, h» waa]^iire enough, he was a perfectly fit 8iii>-
Jeel for a mednrnk For when the spirits want* tt^dium, they look around and find an
OB^ty head^ where ifa«ve are rooamtb let, and tSJM possession,-^ and he was, certainly,
Ugaodone. And what for the prsbabillty? The geatleiMan calk Ais modern iasfRra-
tios. But, does God inspira fools? whan, aooordlB^ to ^ Ustorf of the past, he in-
spires sudi ipen at fifcakipeanay Miltso, and Bywm? A(i<M he inspire the Coon hdy^
wkh their fiddles, and ^m DaviNiporft boys, with thek ropes, tiiat the doctor took lo
Hanrard, to the profearan? He asrtahilir did Mog the foefish tiiingsof this wofM

\

LBO MILLIB AND PBOF. aSIMBS* 91

to confoand tbe wiiel He was, aooording to Scariptnm, eaee; lMit» imfi>rtimaiBl]r, got
teml4y con&andod, becauae his mediums did ezaotlj nothing. I imdonUaid it cost thi
doctor four hundred dollars, and he didn't get any thing, not e^ren a rap — 3nei, tbey
did bring two or three raps on the floor, but almost anybody conld make better. ^

So much for the probability. The ^ntleman began an aigument about human teid*
mony. He asks us if we will not beHeve human testimony. Is not all we do depend^
ent upon human testimony, altogpether ? The gentleman did not do jusliee to that N#
man I ever knew had eloquence enough to do justice to the importance of human tesli*
mony. I regard that element of the human mind from which we are infloeaoed hf
human testimony, as the yery crown of the mind. I have qwnt some little time in dM
study of the humsm mind, and k* called to say what is its h^heet &culty, I should say it
18 that which makes us bend before' human testimony. Let him say all he can upon
that, and I will subscribe to it, and add to it History would be nothing without it.
The lower animak are below man, in that, more than in any thing else. They cannot
write history, and if they did, they do not know enough to believe it. They have iiol
the power of faith. It is a superadded faculty, which raises man above the brutes, and
does enable him to approach to heaven. The very fiK^ulty which enables us to believe
our fellow-men, enables us to believe the word of God, in the Bible. We should not
have religion without it The want of this faculty is the reason why animals have no
religion. Religion is founded upon history. Without it, we could have no courts e#
justice. The judges hear the testimony, and decide the cause only upon human tetti«
mony, in almost every case. What we call literature b based upon it If a man waatl
knowledge, he can get but little by his own ejtperience. If si man waati information,
he goes to his library to seek it : — and happy is thie man who has a good library, and
grateful ought every one of you to be to those who have given you the splendid librft*
ries in this city; — you do not know what a blessii^ they are. Let me not, tberelbr%
di^arage human testimony. And what then ? • Are we, because w^ are to admit hu-
man testimony, to be so ciedalous as to believe the miserable stuff on which this Spiril^
valism is founded ? . Are we to believe everybody that talks, every impostor that kai
something to palm upon the world? Is there to be no limit to human crednfily?
What a heaven that would be for quacks and humbugs 1 There woidd be no bound to
their reign, if you could not set any limit to human testimony, anywhere.

My time is out, though I had meant to make one other point

. Mr. Moderator^ and Ladies and Gendemen : I w^ my brother had had more time
to make a point He tells you of the libraries in the <»ty, and infonns you of how mtitdhf
more or less, Brother Gardner lost, with a great amo«mt of other matter entirely for^gn
to ^e sul^ect He is dearous oi covering hims^ with ail the refnse matter of Spiritt^
aUm, and of singly appealing faethe prejudie0li<of the pe<^le at large. I would beg i»
remind my friend and brother that ridicule is a nughty strong argnment with thO'
weak, but a mighty weak argument with the wise. And I will b^ to remind him, ahi6,
that every subject under heaven i; susceptibfe to ridicule. There is nolliing that tAtt^
90t. bo held up in a false 1^. Suppose I t^ce a statententof the BiMe and cmnmenci^
ndjculing it SMppose, I take th4t vision of Peter^ wiio lirent up 1x> the hoa#e-top to pnirfv
and, falling into a traiHH), sHw hdatven opeinedi ihid k vessel, ^descending to him, like «
girei^t sheets ki|it at the A>or cornisrs and let dbwn* te the earth ; in whi^h were all matt^
fer jof four-footed beasti and creeping things ohd fowlicf the s&r; and he«^ a wtih

t8 DISCUSSION or SPIRITUALiSif BBTWBVN

nying to him, ^^Rise, Peter, kill And eat" — suppose we diould bring an ardst, and
have a picture painted of the scene, and draw, on the canvas, a great sheet, and Peter,
wiA his eyes dosed and his mouth open, and the aninu^ ready to be deTOured, — rep-
res^t a large frog in the foreground, with eyes protruding, and another ludicrously
drawn animal here and there, would it not make, a most ridiculous caricature? Sup*
pose I draw another picture, of the whale swallowing Jonah ; would it not produce
ridicule ? A man's nose is susceptible of ridicule ; and I remember reading a satire on
the human nose. The writer turned it up, and down, and both ways, and made it
come back ; and upon reading the piece, I was almost tempted to cut off my nose ; bofc
upon second reflection, I made up my mind that it was a very important member, after
all. I shall be sorry, indeed, if the gentleman finds that he is so hard-pressed that he is
obliged to ridicule this subject He has stated, simply, that the miracles of old were
above the laws of nature* I have cleariy established the &ct tliat the cases of to^lay
are precisely analogous with those. He said, — Let them work miracles, let them work
miracles now. The cases are precisely analogous. It was called a miracle, in ancient
times, for men to speak unknown tongues. Judge Edmondj says that a niece, in his
house, who knew no language but English and a little smattering of French, could,
tinder spirit influence, speak Greek ;' and that a Greek spoke with a spirit through her.
The gentleman caUs our mediums foob — does he say of Judge Edmonds, that he is a
flxd ? Does he say of Andrew Jackson Davis, that he is a fool ? His writings do not,
certainly, indicate it Friends, foolish as all this is, it has confounded the wisdom of
the world.

My brother 8a3r8 that he will receive human testimony, and, therefore, I will proceed
to give it For I cannot follow him in all his wanderings. If he is disposed to evade
these facts, if he is disposed to evade these arguments, let him do so ; I shall attend to
my duty, and endeavor faithfully to present this subject before the public.
■ I will now speak of a fact which is, to my mind, and it seems to me must be to every
mind, one most positive evidence of spirit-intercourse. The gentleman seems to ac^
knowledge that spirits do hold intercourse with men on earth ; but will he please to tell
US how ? Two years ago last August, I was wandering through the State of Ohio, cm
very much such a mission as was Saul of Tarsus, two thousand years ago ; I being en-
gaged, as is my friend to-day, as an opponent of Spiritualism. I had been, for four
years, engaged in the field of opposition ; and I would here briefly remark that, of all
men in the world, the public opponent o£ Spiritualism has the least opportunity of know-
ing its truth. The gentleman may boast that'he knows as much and more about it than
any other man. I know that while he is acting as a public opponent, he has not i^e
opportunity to investigate, except with a few public test mediums. When he is
known to cavil, and to treat the subject as he has to-night, will he be admitted into the
sanctuary of your &mily circle, there to witness manifestations ? I know, by personal
experience, that I had not the opportunity ; and my brother has been engaged in the
field himself, almost from the first— -I, like thousands of others, in the inihncy of Spir-
ituali^, presumed it was a great delusion and humbug. I went into the field, suppos-
ing I knew something about it, and speculated and theorized. But, two years ago, in
the city of Shagrin Falls, two nailes fit>m the city of Cleveland, I gave two lectures
against SpiritualisoL When I had finished, a young man came to me and said he was
impressed that he could take a likeness of my fiiends in the spirit-world. This to me
seemed strange. I had no idea that such a thing could be. But his candor and sincerity
impreased and staggered me. I tdd him I would give him a fair trial. To corroborate
die fi^ts whioh I shall vekite, yoa can have the testimony of thousands of others. I

LEO JIILLEB AND PBOF. 6BXXRS. 2t

went to the house of Dr. Harlow, where I met Mr. Rodgers, who had, ever sinee
he was able tb work, been in a tailor's shop in the city of Colambus. He waa
never known to manifest the least artistic taste or ability. Dr. Harlow showed
me some of his pictures ; and when I was told that they were executed in fifteen
or twent^, or thirty minutes, I gave him a trial. He would not allow me to be in the
room with him. That was reasonable enough. I knew that mind acts upon mind, and
that my presence might thus hinder him. He de«red, moreover, to have the room
somewhat darkened, — not wholly so, but shaded. Remember that light is a powerM
nervous irritant The blood circulates much more rapidly in the daytime than at nigjht.
You cannot bleep as well in the day as at night. To have a room darkened favors a
natural sleep. The trance depends upon the condition of the brain and nervous 8}'B-
tem, to a certain degree. This requirement seemed fair enough. I selected a pieca
of marbled paper. I took a sheet which had a little stain npon the back, which
would be no'ticed by no one. I placed my signature, and the names of my father's
family, upon the back of it. I arranged private marks carefully upon it, and had
these marks and names arranged in a certain relative position to each other, in the form
of a diagram. It would be impossible for him to detect these private marks. I didn't
know but he might go out from the room : though if he painted the picture, in fifteen,
or forty minutes, this would be inexplicable, whether it was a likeness of any of my
friends tn- not. I went into a bedroom of the house ; I rendered the room so dark that
I could not read in it After taking all that precaution, I sent Mr. Bodgers into the
room, with the piece of marbled paper, and with some dry paint, and, in thirty minutes,
he came out with an accurate likeness of my sister, who had been in the spirit-world
four years. He came out with this painting [Mr. Miller here exhibited the portrait in
question] finished, as you see before you. I never had met Mr. Rodgers, until that day ;
I never have seen him nnce that day; and I know he had never seen my sister, — that
he could never have known any thing of her, more than this gentleman. She had
always lived in Mount Morris, and had never been out of Livingston County in her life.
That painting was executed upon the same paper which I had taken so much pains to
mark. The likeness was accurate, and recognized by my father's family, and by scores
of my sister's schoohnates. For, when I returned to my home, I hung the painting in
the hall, before her schoolmates, and many gazed upon it with wonder, and acknowledged
the faithfulness of the likeness. This is not the only painting Mr. Rodgers executed.
During the two years and a half that he was a medium, he probably made from five to
ei^t hundred of these pictures ; and to each one of these, there are at least ten, fifteen,
or twenty witnesses, who recognized them as faithful and accurate likenesses. Here is
a cloud of witnesses. There is a lady in this audience, from the West, who has a faithr
frd and accurate likeness of her brother, which was executed through the mediumship
of Mr. Rodgers, and in the same length of time. I hold in my hand a letter from Mr.
Hiram B. Smith, of Livingston County, New York, a gentleman worth, perhaps, two
hundred thousand dollars, a member of the Baptist Church, a man well known for his
integrity. He gives me, in this letter, a statement in regard to a painting of this kind.

<* Aton, August 16, 1869.

« loo Mnxift, Bsq., — Tonn of the Uth came duly to hand. Glad to hear yov are still laboring in the good
SMise. Ton wish me to give you the fitcts in regard to tiw Hkenassof my little boy.

**In the &11 of 1866, 1 was passing through the State of Ohio. I had read, in a newspaper, an account of B.
Bodgers taking splzit-Ukenesses, at Gardington. I saw by my cheek that we passed through Oardington. I at
once resolTed to stop oyer, one train, uid see the man. On inquiry, I found that he had gone back into the
eonntry seme four miles. I procured a horse and buggy, drore out, and found him in a wild-lo<^ng plaoa,
tandiBf trith an old foBDMr. I told taim I hidie0Bmiiotfeetnlhep»pflr,statl]4rthaefatooii]daukia]lk»-

8# DISCU98IOV OF BVIRVtVJLLlBU BETmBSN

f flf ipbiii, MMlfteA If M, I bad lost » nottwr, and tnmld Uke to get hjv Uk«BMi. He rapBed iliat h»
eoold nofe ti^ whe^hir ijb eoojd be mde* or not. He remariied, that, at Um«B^ he became nnconaeioiu, — it
■eemed like going to sleep ; and when he came out of this state, he fouivl that p(»tralts had been made. After
■ome farther eonfenation, he requested me to nutrk the marble-boaxd on K^iich the likenesses were made, that
I nicht be satisfied it ms no old piotwe. TIds I did, with great cere. Sppn his eyes closed; he got up, took
tlie maxUe-boajrd, and :fent into a small dari^ room, and left the door ojien. In twenty^ve or fchiftjiminutes,
he came out and handed me. a beautiful, correct likeness of my little boy, made on the same board I had
maifced. This boy had been dead some fifteen years; he was five and one-half yean old when he died. I
zeeogttiied it the moment I saw it. The resonblanoe between him and his sister now liriog, Is Tezy striking.
As he presented it to me, I ssid to him, — ' Do you call this a likeness of my mother? ' He looked at it as
thou^ he had not seen it before, and said, — * Np ; it is a likeness of some little boy.' He then explainedi
that tihe pictures were made, sometimes, and he was directed where to send them. He went back to his table,
and said, — ' Here is something tiiat has been written.* He handed it to me; it was written with pencil: —
* We have given you Edwin's likeness, this time; next time, we will giro you one of your mother.' I had no
communication with Bfr. Rodgers, that I had erer lost any fHends but a mother. This, is the only likeness W9
erer bad, of this child. I was sever in that part of the state before. I was not with Mr. Bodgers more thaa
an hour and a half. He icnew nothing of me or my fiunily.
VUm boy's name was Qeorge Edwin; but we called him Edwin.

** Tours respectfully, H. B. SMxm.

*^ P. 8. Please let me know how the ^Bseusrion comes out.

" I have written tbtis in.a great hurry h. b. 8.''

Can you rejeet the testimony of this witness ? Mr. and Mrs. Newkirk, of Laporte,
Indiana, have a likeness of their two children. Here is a piece taken from the Laporte
TimeSy wluch is not a Spirittialist paper : —

"SPIRITUAL PAINTING.

** There are three pictures now in the houw of Mr. B. Newkiric, of this dty ; portraits which we are tidd
ropresent Mrs. Newkirk's mother, and two children ; all of whom have been for many years, dwellers in another
sphere. The production of them pictures has produced a good deal of srasation ; and we have been requested
to.-state ttie laots. for the benefit of the curious : —

^'Mr. Rodgers, of Cardington, Ohio, who ^as.been known for some months in si^tual circles, as the Artist-
Medium, a tailor by trade, uneducated, and without any of the aconipUshments of an artist, after urgent s(^o»
itatlon, lislted this city a f^ weeks since, and stopped at Mr. Newkirk's house. He came on Thursday. On
Faidisf he felt *■ infinenced ' <-• took a Mieett of Postelle paiating paper, requested Bfr. Newkirk to place hkaigw
nature on the back of it, which -was done. In a few minutes the medium was entranced, and a portrait waji
produced uppn the same sheet of paper. On Saturday he again repaired to his rocmi, in a similar condition
and in twenty-five minutes' sitting produced another portrait, of a young girl. On Monday following, at tiw
house of Mr. C^thoart, after eimilftr precaution reepeeting the paper, in twenty-aine minutes the picture of a
yofung lad was-brou|^t:<Mit; all of which are paintings of more than ordinary merit; and one of them an ex>
qnisite picture of rare beauty and excellence. The picture of .the lady bean strong resemblance to the femily.
We recognissed this on first observation The pictures of the children we know nothing about. Whethw tbcQT
are representative or not, the parents are pleased with tbem.

" .We have but this to sciy ia the matter : — There iB no reasonable doubt but these pictures were produoed,
by a man under influences the laws and nature of which we are entirely ignorant of — in the incredible short
time i^Ilottcd to each — that they are more than ordinarily good, as portrait paintings, so far as the art is co|i-
cefued — that they eould not have been executed by the- most experienced artist riiort of many hours' labor on

<* It is needless for ps to add that.it is olaimed by the medium and otl^ors that these are the works of sphi^
artists, operating through the organisation of Mr.. Rodgers, who is unconscious of the.d(isign« execution, or ap-
pearance of the pfctnre while in his tranced state. Colored crayons are used, the colonr are blended by the
fiugsrs of the mediwai — no oftbtr injArumen Is being-etaployed. We make (facse statements witibout coinment,
as va do not wish to enyter iitto a disousdonof Spiritualism iv anyvwuier."

Will my hiQther meet these facts ? Will he respect the feelings of others, who
cdve these truths, and will he meet these facts, gentlemanly and like a njan ?

MR. ei

,40 i$M

The gentLeman aeenu to be deeply sensitive to ridiciile. Well, to am L But I
should like to a^ who loses, in a debate, by ridiculing the truth. Let any man, befbre
a Boston audience, ridicule a truth, and how much does he gain by it? He will loie

LBO JaiXBB AKD PBOF* CRUMKk 81

lufl case at once. Indeed, you cannot do it Kiccenfiilly <— joo eannot pofsibly doii.
Let the statne of Truth be brought before us, clothed in rags, and let me step forward
and pull off these rags and tell what a miserable thing it is ; by the time you get all the
rags off, 3rou see it in its perfect beauty, — and what harm have I done f Hare I aot
rather done a favor to it ? I have exposed it : and the more you expose truth, ^ bet*
ter it is. Briagftrward oneof the beautifol pixxkiGtioas of our trae artists, and present
it before an audience, and let some one say, — **What a homely thing ! faorw ridiculonsr
—who would lav^h? A lion's skin is a sublime object ; you cannot ridicule it. It is
associated in the mind, with evevy ihing tJiat is noble. When « man presents it to the
audience, and let another pretend to lai^ at it — it will pot da The thing shows its
own noble character. But when you pull it aside and it shows a calf beneath, and you
laugh, who is to blame ? If a thing is absolutely ridiculous in itself, and I expose it,
who is to blame ? A portrait painter once eame to a wealthy mafi, attd said, ^ I am
alBifwt«tarTtng,.and money will ^ave my iamily." *' Oh, well," said he; '*ifyou.)«ll
paint me, and make me look respeetaMe — ** ^ Oh, I shall have to starve,^ said the M^
ist, **it can't be dena" Now, I say we eannot represent Spiritualism as it is, but
everyone willlaugh. I should have to ^ve the thing up. A thing so perfectly .ab-
surd that, when it is looked at in the light of the ludicrous, no man with a sense of the
ludicrous can help laughing at it. If it be regarded in the light of morals, one must,
ind£^, be shocked ; because, in that respect, its influence is most pernicious ; if that is
the gentleman's god, let htm worsliip it '^ Hiese be thy gods, O Israel 1" — as Moaei
said when his people worshipped oalves I must be excused from worshif^ng such thiogB.
I must do as Moses did, — dash it tlown, and break it in pieces. Those of you ndio
look upon Spiritualism with such solemn respect, go worsh^ it ; but I wiU have no such
gods before me.

The gentleman asks if Judge £dmonda i».a feoL I ask you if he was a seasible man
when he wrote that book. Let. me read an extract from iiL Now, I do not meaa to
ridicule Judge Edmonds ; but I will read his own writing, I will give you the picture
that be gives of himselt'; and if it is ridiculous, mark you, it is not my fault. Judge
Edmonds was a judge of the Supreme Court of the State of New York and a judge 06
the Court of Appeals, the highest court in our state, — a man of character, integrity,
talent, — there is no doubt of it. I know well, for I have been* present in the court,
when he has presided with dignity and ability. No man, I believe, respected him more
than I did, in common with all the members of the bar. We looked up to him with
reverence and admiration. Now, Judge Edmonds, when he was thus in his height of
glory, descended like Lucifer from heaven. He sank, not only in the estimation of the
members of the bar, but of the whole state ; and his fellow-members of the Democratio
party dare not nominate him again. It would have been considered ridiculous; he
would have lost his election. This might be set down to persecution. But do you ask
me, since he was a man of ability and integrity, how it was possible for him thus to de-
scend. I answer that, beyond all question, the man was insane — he was laboring un-
der a disease of the brain. Do you doubt it ? It seems, to me, to be the most charito-
ble explanation you can give of his conduct

In his book upon Spiritualism, he says : —

^ The idea is, I am aware, entertained by some, ttiat this new philosophy is at Tsrlainco with the istnto-
tion through Christ, the Redeemer. This is, indeed j a sad mlstaice, and one that betieFers woald be too happy to
oorrect, if only the opportunity could be afforded them."

I should like to know if that is not insanity, to begin with. They cannot agree araoag
themselves; they are quarrelling with each other, to begin with, — their ^ritnal
arc so various I

&%' DisouMioir OF spmrruAuax betwsen

Then in another part of the book, he says : — >

" Xh« human mind thus prepared fbr ita adrent, — "

And^ by the Tfay,I wish toshow that after he said Spiritualiam was not at yariance
with Christianity^ he begins to exalt Spiritualism, and to run down Christianity —

** This new dispensation oomes to sapplj tiie want to tlie eonntlesii thonsands who an now slnmbering in in-
difflnrenee or toiling in infidelity ; to teach man his origin, his duty, and his destiny ; to eonviet him of his im-
mortality, and instruot him how to make it happy; to open to his view the great doctrine of progression,
InrolTing an eternity of action, and the supremacy of liis reason over the besetting propendties of his material
nature ; and to hnpress upon him ftireTer the precept to lore God and his fellow. It comes — "

Now, mark the contrast — the new dispensation

^QoaMS not with the &ggot and the sword, — '*.

implying that this was the coming of Christianity — ^

" but with healing on its wings, at once the Redeemer and the Comfl^rter; not in a distant and snbifugated
province, but amid a mighty people who are free tO receiTe and onbraoe it, — '*

referring to the fact that Judea was a subjugated province of the B(mians, — whereas,
this came in this country, '*amid a mighty people" — it is democratic. — Again: the
new dispensation comes

'^not'to a few obscure men in lonely places, but everywhere broadcast throughout the whole dTiliaed
world, and among all classes; not to be taught covertly amid the carems of the hills or the dens and vaults oi
imperliUi Some, but openly in the fitce of Ctod and man, challenging investigation ; not asking a blind fidth ov
dependence upon authority, but the exercise of pian's most Ood-like quality, his reason.*'

Now, let me refer you to the passage where, after having told of the mean way in
which Christianity came, and the noble way in which modem Spiritualism came, he
proceeds to show the manner in which Spiritualism came to himself, and gave some of
those sublime experiences which I shall attend to, I warrant you, in good time — I will
haul up these stories of his, and that picture, and tell you what they are, before I have
done. Let me read from Judge Edmonds' work.

*

*' I was asked what evidence I would have.''

For he says that afler seeing many of these things which that gentlemen says nobody
can help believing, he was a determined sceptic. That gentleman tells us we must be
passive, and willing to believe ; but Judge Edmonds says he insisted upon proof. But
let us proceed.

" I was asked what evidence I would have. I replied, I cannot say, for if I do, I tell you what to do."

That was rather sensible : for you know crazy people are dten insane upon one sub-
ject and upon no other.

<* The answer was, You shall have evidence that shall satisfy you. It was on the 2l8t Bfay, 1851, that tha
evidMice came, and in rach form as to leave no doubt on my mind as to two of the points of my inquiries.

It was on an evening when the circle to which I belonged was to meet. • • • •

We found tiiere a party of at least twenty persons, amt>ug whom were five mediums. We were surprised to
nieeteach other; for we met without preconcert, and found upon inquiry, that we luul been assembled by
directions given to different persons in like manner with those given to the medium whom I accompanied. For
three hours I there witnessed physical manifestations which demonstrated to me beyond all doubt that th^
were not produced by mortal hands, and were governed by an intelligence out of and beyond those i»«sent. It
ia vain for any one to say we were deceived. I knew that I was not, and so did every one of that large party.
80 is it vain to say the mediums did it, for they were actually more frightened at what occurred than we

, »

Don't you think it is likely that persons used to seeing the thing were more fright-
ened than those who had never seen it before ?

'^ tiKO kiLi.BR kxb PBO'r. bttncss. OT

Now, let 118 see how the new dispenw^on oame in.

•*7lMn H iiM fbBt th* cihab xim bfedt ttid «>rfth on 1^

niere was a new dispensation I —

** 11m Ml HM nng ot«r onr hMdi — **

He doesn't say it was dark ; but I happen to know, from another tonrce, that it was.
You don't get these bells rung over your head, in the light —

** kuX one of tba parlj wm ftccibty ton by aa la^i|>)Ui powar from mj gnap, la splio allko of Ui ■tnngth
and mine. Through one <A the mediaiD« we were told, *Go to the front door and let them in,' and when the
9sMt was opened an unexpected addition to the partj, not one of whom waa known to the medium, was Ikmnd
aleending the steps, but had not xeaehed the bell. Aa I stood in a oorner when no one eoold naeh my

It seems he had some idea what company he was in —

«* I fidt a hand thrust into it

Just think of a spiritual pckpocket 1 And that reminds me that in the city of New
Orleans a girl was arrested stealing, and she said it was not she that stole, but she was
a medium, and a thieving spirit had got into her, and she couldn't help stealing. If Judge
Edmonds were on the bench, why should not he rule that she was insane, under this
new dispensation ? '

<* As I itood in a comer fdieie no one oonld zeaeh my podB^ I fUt « hand thnut into it, and tmnd— "
found what ? surely, s(»nething sublime —

** I Ibmnd that rfx knots had been tied In my handkerebkf. **

Was that so very solemn ? Was that entitled to such profound respect? Shall we
notl)e excused if we smile a little, at some of these things ?

»»AbaMTiol— ^>

tiiat is a big fiddle —

** was put into my hand and rested on my ftoi, and then was played upon. A ^toUn-^'*

that is a little fiddle —

" WBspflaeed in my other hand, and Hkewiae played upon. ulnetAertnoiM was hung around my neak by oat
of its strings, and I was stmck firequentlSLwith a fiddle-bow. ](y peaon was r^eatedly touched, and « eloar
"^luOei out from under me,''*

Mark : there he was, a judge of the Court of Appeals in the State of New York,
standing in the comer of the room, with six knots tied in his pocket handkerchief a
bell ringing over his head, a bass viol in one hand, a violin in the other, a violin hung
around his neck, his chair pulled from under him, and a fiddle-bow punching him in the
ribs I In that situation he is receiving the new dispensation : — and you ask me not to
laugh at that! Keep on long faces and talk about it ! — if you can do it, you can do
more than I can. Just let a picture be made — why couldn't some of these spiritual
artists paint a picture, representing Judge Edmonds receiving the new dispensation ? —
not in a distant and subjugated province, not amid the caverns of the hills, or in the
dens and vaults of imperial Rome, — but in a comer of a dark room, and under a load
of fiddles !

And if you investigate these stories, yon will .find them all substantially of the same
sort.

[Mr. Grimes' time heie e^qibed.] ,

8

MC9* Tf Tif^TpP i

Mr. Chairman, and Ladies and (^/^(ifi^mfJ^: Ppiir Jjsmk nffm PfQ;^(i4m ^ iponld
haTe been, had the gentleman attended to mj &ct8, which have been introduced here
as bearing on this question, — instead (Staking up facts to which I have made no alio*
sion. I shall not attempt to follow him through his dcTioaa CKpnrae. J caimot. S^i will
simply suggest, just here, that, if Judge Edmonds fell from his high public and ofljcial
position, so low that he has lost tiiie ^teem of His countrymen, didf not Saul of Tarsm^
the learned Paul, he who had sat at the feet of Gamaliel, learned in all the Jewish
law, so &11 ? They saidt -*»-Iie is mad: munlk learning hath made him mad. And they
bufietted him ; he lost public respect ; his own people turned i^nst him. Strong eyjt*
denpf; of his inaanityi thai; he would not go with the crowd, and cujrry &vor with Mnu
Grundy and her relatives. These are the gentleman's arguments, to which you hxtn
listened to-night. Friends, I will {WJ¥i)0 the even tfiw>r of my conrae. I will give \>ut
one additional fact here, and shall then proceed to speak of the gentleman's rejection of
human testimony.

Ara the cafes, of ix^i^y analt^us to those of eighteen hun£|red years i^? "Wl^t
^ t|ie facts ? The gentleman lo^es ^ght of tlt^ese. Jesus Christ, by laying his hi9<v|
tfjfon the si^k, healed tbem, ajxd thus* top, restored the blind to sight So did the apostlef^
Jj^ l^e g^ve you a modern cf^ie. Mrs, Dr- Brawn, of Utica, a well-known ladyt Wff
blind, with a severe case of amaurosis, occasioned by disease of the optic nenre, . i^
affection of the eye not to be cured without a surgical operation, — and this a hazard-
ous operation^ This woman was totally blind, for months. She told me she visited a
healing medium in St Lawrence County, New York, and that medium laid his hands
upon her eyes and cured her, and she can. see as weU, to^ay^ 48 J* She was ths^nklul
that good angels had laid their hands upon her eyes. And she, vfiih other good Sao^^ri-
tan women, went into the houses. of misery and shame, and gathered a band of childri^n^
and brought them to a large hall, instituted a ragged school, and every sabbath food is
brought in to supply the wants of the children, they have raiment given to them, they
are taught to read and write, and to serve Grod by loving each other. And, aftei their
lessons, they receive a ^earty mea), api ar^ di^jous^ed to their homes, (^en, wi^b a bas-
ket of food. And while she and others carry out the lessons of Christianity, the priest
and Levite pass by on the other side, with their gilt-edged hymn-books, and denounce
them as infidels. God knows, that this is as true to-day, as when, eighteen hundred
years ago, Christ uttered it against the Scribes and Ptfiuisees.

My brother is absolutely driven to deny human testimony. ' I wish, now, to call

your attention to the fact that the Christian Church has considered human testimony

reliable ; that every single recorded fact in tlie Bible rests upon human testimony. Do

-you believe these facts because they are in the Bible ? No ; but you believe the Bible to

:lie of divine authority because of the facts. The facts rest upon human testimony. Meii

; testified that they witnessed these things; that establishes the divine authority of the

Bode in your mind. Let me say, further, that the great battle-field between the Christaan

-^world and the infidel world has been on the ground of human testimony. The infidel

world has said, — We cannot receive human testimony, — we ignore human testimony.

Hume says: Three men come down from Mount Tabor, and say that while asleep^ with

'tiieireyes closed, they saw Moses and Elias talking with Christ He says such things

<^do not exist in our da^, and it is more reasonable to suppose the alleged witnesses

were deceived, or deceivers, tiian that this should be true. The Christian world

called him an infidel, because he rejected this human testimony. But what shall wca.say

ja£ that infidelity which will reject the testimony of tliousaads and teu of thousands of

LEO, XILLER AND PBOF. OBIXEB. $^,

liying 'mtnesses ? Hume, Pune, .aud Voltaire rejected the ten^mony o(^ comparatiTely,
a few witnesses, who lived eighteen handled, and thousands of years ago. Here youp
own fadiera, mothers, brothers, and sisters, come forward and testify, and you ^ore it
It is hard, indeed, when my brother has to give the lie to his neifi^bcyrB and friends- It
is evidence he is hard-pressed. But I wish to show to you that;- in his positioii npon
this question, he has taken infidel grounds, those which every infidel has always taken.
And I add, that every man, woman, and child, that fraternizes or sympathizes with hit
views, has taken infidel ground ; and I say, further, that to-day, the entire Christian
Church, in its (^position to Spiritualifim, has taken infidel ground. I challenge them to
come forward ; and I will show that they have taken the same position fiur which the^
have branded Hume, Vcdtaire, and Paine, as infidels. They r^ect the testimony of their
own friends, who can be interrogated and cross-examined in r^|;ard to their statements.
I declare to you, here, to-night, that the infidelity of Thomas Paine whitens into immortaL
virtue when compared with the infidelity of my brother, and the opposition to S(nrit<
ualism, manifested by the Christian Church, to-day ; and it will be so written upon the
pages of human history ; yea, it iff now being written upon the records of time.

And not only have they taken infidel ground, but their position is that of Antichrist
Have they not set aside the words of Christ V Christ said, ** Gro ye into all the world,
and preach the gospel to every creature. And these signs shall follow them that believe :
In my name shall they cast oyt devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Ihey shall
take up serpents ; and if iikej drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them ; they shall,
lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." The Church says thb will never be done
more. Christ says it wilL Christ says, *' Verily, verily, I say unto you. Ho that be-
lieveth on me, the woiks that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall
he do ; because I go unto my Father." My brother says these works cannot be doi^e.
The Chris^n Church, now, repudiates it Jesus Christ says, '^ If ye abide in me, and
my words aUde m you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you,''
Antichrist says it is not true. You may call upon the spirit of your sainted mother, to
talk with you, and God will send an evil spirit and strong delusion that you may be
danmed. Christ says. If ye ask for bread, will he give you a stone ? Yes, says Anti-
christ ; and Yes, says my friend. Christ says, If jre ask for a fish, will he give you a ser-
pent? Yes, says Antichrist; and Yes says my brother. I do not say that my brother
haVpurposely taken the grcmnd of Antichrist ; but these are the facts. We hear them
prating about infidelity; but if they will open the Book, and read carefidly, they will
find they a>e the ones tihat are pointed to in these passages.

I presented a fiict; I have produced a painting; I have given vyy own statement in
VBgBix^ to it ; I have corroborated it by competent witnesses. I do not ask you to re-
ceive this, but allow you to investigate. Will you ascertain whether tiiese things are
true or not ? You may sit down and read this Bible through, and when you have got
np finom your reiiding, you cannot find one-half the evidence of immortality that yoa
can find in this painting alone. I appeal to you, to-night, to say, if you could get a pic-
ture of your friend, under such circuipstances, would it not ke mare (^ an eyidenee of
the Hfe of that fiiend, tiian any you ever had ? And I say to you, to-night, that God
and his good angels know that if the Harvard professors, or the ministers of the Gospel
would appoint a committee, tq-morrow, to ijsquire where and how this pajpting wjqp.
earocuted, they would be engaged in i^ mqre laudable enterprise than tiiey were ever enn
ipiged in befi>re. It is true that we can never have present tmthp and revjslfttifjps ao*
oepted by afi men. l^ever is revelaf^ion accept^ in tiie preaent ten^e. WkP^ P)^^.
hiik4 t^e |nck ^ restored Afs bj^ t^o ri^t, he yfj^ f»ofiuaed of f#^ ft |^|il fluf

86 DISCUSSION OF SPianUALISM BETWEEN

tliey tell us, now, — We know that these things occurred two thousand years ago, but as
fiir this fellow, we know nothing of him. And my brother takes the language right out
of the mouths of the Jews, and says, — We know these things occurred two thousand
years ago, but as fyr these men and women, what are they ? Christ was accused of being
possessed of a devil, of associating with harlots and wihe-bibbcrs, ^nd of being a glutton-
ous man. Bead Mosheim's History of the Primitive Church, and see how the Chris-
tian Church was held in the respect of the world.

We have introduced evidence, here, of the truth of the affirmative of this question,
and we shall produce more. Christ declared that, in the spirit-world, men and women
become like angels. My mother, then, has become a spirit, and why should she not be.
a ministering angel ? Does my brother deny the doctrine of ministering angels, acknowl-
edged by the whole Christian Church ? Who is a more fit and natural guardian angel
for me, than my mother? A band of angels leave heaven, to come here as guardian-
angels; and my mother says. Oh, let me go — I have a son ther6 — let me go and be
near to him. Will they say. Go to a corner of the universe, and there remain^ I say,
upon the authority of reason, of the Bible, on the authority of the instincts of the human
soul, that that mother, by a law of spiritual attraction, comes back, and becomes th^
guardian angel of those who are left behind.

I know I have not time to introduce a further argument, and I therefore leave the sutv
ject Tti^ gentleman can go all over the field ; but I come here to present these facts
and alignments, and. Heaven helping me, I will do it faithfully, before my Grod, my coii-.
science, and the angel-world.

BAR. GRIMSS.

I wish to meet a point that has been raised, here, again and again. The gentlemfm
wants me to be serious and not ridicule ; and these Spiritualists continually, when I talk
with tl^em, talk as if I have not used a serious argument, and say I ridicule because J.
cannot argue. Now, I have an argument here, and I would thank that gentlen\an to
note it, and I would thank this audience to observe it ; for I consider it; a vital ai^gii->
ment in this discussion. I consider it the very hinge on which the whole turns ;-y-r and
it is this. The gentleman says that I reject human testimony, when all that I said upon
the subject was the very reverse. . • V.

Mr. Miller. — I can save my brother a great deal of remark. Mrs< Gerritt Smith'
says she has shaken hands with her child, since it has been in the spirit-land,- and has
heard its voice. Do you take her testimony as reliaUe ?

Mr. Grimes. — If you will allow me to make my argument, isir, I will proceed, and
I will attend to Mrs. Gerritt Smith, prcsentj^^

Now, concerning human testimony. What is it worth? How arb you to view it?
Why, my finend, every court of justice in the civilized world, in. every nation where
men argue questions, has rules of evidence. Every lawyer — and, I believe my
friend, here, is a lawyer and, therefore will not deny the positions I am about to tak^f ^
— eveiy law3rer will sanction what I am going to say ; and it is 2l perfect death-bbTv: to
what the gentleman said upon the subject. It is this. The rules of evidence are used
not alone in every court, but wherever men meet as referees, in any way, to determine
upon evidence. The question is, what shall we consider proper evidence ? I have no
time to enter upon it more than briefly. But one rule is this : The' man who, asserts
that a ihing is true, must prove it'; and the other side.has a right tp stapd and .deny
itianddoesiuDtibysoddng, callyoualiar. You are guilty of an offence. Ichaige

LSO HILLEB AJXD FBOF. GBIMB8* 87

yon with the gidlt You haTe a right to say you are not guilty ; and the o&sat side
must proceed to prove it Let xne show how we are continually Tiolating these rules.
The i^irits, instead of proving their manifestations, call upon me to prove the opposite,
" Mis. Gerrit Smith says so and so ; now prove that it is not so." I got up in the morn-
ing, jumped over a meeting-house, landed upon a solid rock, and it didn't hurt me ; and
I do it every morning, and it doesn't hurt me : and I call upon you to prove it is not so.
J[ say it is a spirit ; and, if it is not a spirit, what is it?

Mr. Miller. — I have not asked my brother to prove it was not so. I asked him
how to dispose of this testimony.

Mb. Grimes. — That is what I am dmng. • I will dispose of that testimony to the
gentleman's satisfaction, I warrant you. I will dispose of it as Judge Edmonds hai
done, in my presence, again and again and again, — saying that he would not have it in
court a moment, he would kick it out at once. Now, I make thb assertion, that, in any
court of justice in the world, if you should claim an old horse, not worth five dollars,
you could not get it, upon the evidence my brother produces here to-night I will stake
what^little legal reputation I have, upon that Let Spiritualism come into court We
want your evidence. Suppose the Spiritualist says, ^' I acknowledge that it belongs to
me to prove its truth, and I will prove it" The rule is, that when any case is to be
proved, it must be proved by the best evidence which that case admits, whatever it is ;
and evidence is divided into classes. The first class is the best, then there is a second
and third best, and so on. Now the best evidence must be produced, and it must be
produced first : and if that best evidence is anywhere in existence, you cannot intro-
duce the other. The court will uQt allow me to do as the gentleman does here, who
brings in fifty witnesses, of the ^* most respectable" people, and then goes on to talk about
their respectability. What would Judge Edmonds say, if in court ? *' Is that deed in ex-
istence ?" ^ Yes, sir ; but it b a good deal of trouble to find it" *' Not one will be
allow^ to swear to it." ^ Well, but, your Honor, that deed is in a book in a certain
room, and my wif^ has gone from home and has the key. It is a great deal of trouble ;
— surely, you will not treat with contempt all this testimony." *^Not one wiU be al-
lowed to swear."

Now, my friends, will you give up the Bible, in which we believe ? will you give up the
Christian religion, at which the gentleman so sneers ? — wUl you give up all we believe
upon earth, and more than that, our hope of heaven, — upon testimony that would not
be received in any court upon earth ? The gentleman says, — that picture was made so
and so, and is a portrait of his sister ; and he brings the picture here. Does that prove it
was made in the manner he asserts ? He brings hearsay testimony, — which you cannot
bring into court, except in the case of a dying man. The proper evidence in the
case is this, — let the artist come here and tak^ a picture of somebody else. I will take a
picture, and cover it up in a book, and the gentleman can bring on all his mediums, and
artists, and if they can paint a picture like it, I will never say a word against it I will
write a single word, and they shall tell what it is ; and if they can do it, I will never utter
a word agmst Spiritualism again. He says that it cannot be done here. I wiU go any-
where else ; the room may be darkened ; and if it is done, I will never again oppose
Spiritualism. He can't do that, but he can tell us stories about Mrs. Tripp and Mr.
Potter and Mrs. Brown, in abundance. Do you not always reject human testimony
when you can get any thing better ? You have a patent-right case. You say : '* Your
Honor, I have invented this machine ; I have a model in my garret ; and I can bring

* * ■ «

fifty w?tii(S^ iie^, wlio h&ve se^n it'* ^* Bring Jrctor ifaifeliifte.** «* WriB, but we liaird
altered tbie fpom, sb that the machine canhot tie brbaght out!.'' The Jiiry win go and
see it Ahd titiey do that in the case of Undsj where thfe juiry can well ^iint iSLd
premiseM. I bainnot ptovei that there was such a nian asr ChkHes the Fuhst, by ahj man
living. 9li6 case does hot adioait at it. The best e^dence is history. The beiA eii-
d^c^ df ihe essence of Jesos Chri^ is liistory. That is the be^ evidence of Which the
case admits. If a deed is lost, if a man Says, *^ I had that deed, your Honor^ and 1 gktie
it to my. bay, to carry it where it might be recorded, an^ my boy lost it, and I can proye
that there was such a deed, and that it was lost before recordings" the testimony of
witnesses will be admitted. If these gentlemen say that they saw such and such things
in Ohio, t should suppose we ought to admit it ; but if a man watks into court withoat
his deed, and his witnesses are not flowed to testify, what shoiild we say if he diould
atidwer to the demand of the court for it, — " If you don't believe these respieetable peo-
ple, 1 will not give you any other evidence ? " JNow, you have tlables that rise right up
when anybody touches them, pianos that will go clear up, with a man 6n top of them,
atid ten thbtksand have seen it : — I beg leave to have the best evidence-^ I shoul^like
to see (^ piano go up. You have mental questions answered, continually: — ^I will
yihnte a mehial question, on a piece of paper, and c6v«r it up so that they cannot cheat,
and if it is answered before this audience, I will hold my tohgue forever, on this subject
Let liie have one rap made under circumstances where there is no cheating — you aay
itcahnbt be done without conditions, — I will give you all conditions but one, the con-
dition tliat you shall not cheat — let there be a rap, let the table move an inch, under
such conditions, and I will give it up. I have searched and searched, and I cannot find
it. 1 don't ask you to do it here : I will go anywhere in the world, to find it I don^
want the room darkened, that is nonsense, — let us have light. You say you have the
table lipped with your hands on it, but that you dont push at all I will have some
putty put under your fingers : if you will tip a table with that jJutty under your fingers,
I will give it up. The putty will teistify against you. You say you don't push, bat the
putty win say you do push. Now, do you say I ridicule ? Then, every court of justice,
and every wOirk On evidence, and every lawyer that knows any thing, ridicules. The
question of Spiritualism may come up in court. Let us get up some sham suit, and
have it tried in coUrt " Your Honor, we want to prove that the table rises right up ;
that is part of the case." I don't see how the Court could very Well refiise, if it was
necessary to the case. " Let us see the table rise." " We don't want to do that ; but
we will bring a great many people who will say they have seen it rise." " You cannot
be allowed that" It is a very common thing to have experiments taken in court, in re-
gard to poison. The testimony of men wiH not be taken, if it admits 6t an experiment.
If the jury insist upon seeing it tried, they must see it Not only is this so in court, but
whefe philosophical experiments are tried, it is the same.

Ilien, again, the gentleman speaks about the Christian world and infidelity. Why,
the {)A)feSsots at Harvard College were not prejudiced. Agassiz is not a pardcularly
religious man, liny moh3 th^in all scientific men are. He seeks evidence. When Df.
Gardner offered to bring the evidence before him, he asked him to bring the evidence ;
and QtaVdner, like a mi^n, endeavori^d to do sa He spent a great deal of money for it, and
acted in a veiy creditable manner. The raps were not any better than the professors
could make ; the mental questions were a^ked, and there were no answers at all ; and
the boys were tied and could not be untied. And you charge them With being unjust
You can find i^ fisw men who can swear those boys disentangled themselves from the

LSO MILLKB AlTD PROF. OBIMB8.

89

ropes, in thia box ; but when you come to try it, the ropes were cut, and every thing
showed them to be tricksters. Eren Dr. Bell, who previously believed that the pha-
nomena actually took place, as pretended by these boys, had to give it np.

Mb. Millbb. — Is this the point ?

Mb. Gbucbs. — Well, if you don't like it, trot out the boys, — let ns have the boyi.

Jfr. Ckairmai^ Ladies and CUtUlemen: As I am restricted from replying to my
brother now, I will say that I have no porticidar expbmatory remarks to make. That gen-
tleman has struck a vein at last I am glad to say he has, in candor, talked about the
character of testimony ; and when I come to reply to this, I shall endeavor to show
iiai this winch I give U the best testimony. And I will endeavor to show, also, that
it is the only testimony that Christ and his apostles gave to a sceptical world. I
shall endeavor to show that we cannot find a precedent in human history, in the case of
any revelations or spirit-manifestations, where the inspired man, where the prophet or
the apostle, called together the masses of the sceptical world, and there proceeded to
demonstrate the reality of qiirit-interoourse. They did adc Christ for the same testi-
mony and evidence that the gentleman has asked here to-night He said, — Let me
see the piano go op. The Jews said^ — Let us see Christ come down.

' 1 will make one vemark, only, nnee the gentleman was telling what Christ did.
When Thomas, one ci the disciples, called for the best evidence that the case admitted
of, doubting whether Christ had F^ally risen, and 8aid,-^^#keept I shall see in his
hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust
my hand into his ride, I will not believe him,"-— Christ gave it hun, — gave him the
b^t evidence. I would thank the gentleman to imitato Christ, an4 to give to ns the
•bbitt evidence, in the fhtnre.

THIRD EVENING.

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 7th.

At the opening of tills day's debate, it was publicly arranged, between the speaken,
tbat the first question under discussion should bo continued through tins and the
succeeding evening.

Those of you present before this eyening, will remember that I hare endeavored to set
fbrth the fact that human testimony, in every age of the world, has been considered reli-
able ; that the entire fabric of human belief is based upon human testimony ; and that the
great battle between the infidel and Christian worlds has been upon the ground of hu-
man testimony, — the infidel world rejecting it, as hearsay testimony, the Christian
world, relying upon the integrity of humanity, claiming that human testimony is suffi-
cient to establish facts. It is true that my brother replied that human testimony is to be
received, except testimony in regard to spirit-manifestations, so called, at the present
time. And he proceede4^to introduce before you one of the technicalities of law, in
receiving human testimony. He says there are degrees of evidence, according to the
technicalities of law ; there is the first-best evidence, and the second-best evidence, and.
the third-best evidence : that in the absence of the first-best evidence, the second is
good ; in the absence of the first or second best, the third evidence is good. This I ^
acknowledge to be true in the technicalities and formalities of a legal process. And I
am willing to grant that it is true in receiving the testimony here, to-night, in regard to
spirit-manifestations. But I wish to draw the distinction which every enlightened court
upon the face of the earth makes, between the evidence o£ an individual and the evi-
dence of a passive instrument, — a will, a contract, or a deed. There is a vast difference,
in our courts, between the evidence of a deed and the evidence of an individual. The
deed is passive; it tells but one story, — bring it in. The individual cannot be made
always to testify. Let me take a case in point, — the same of which the gentleman
spoke last evening. A man lays claim to a certain portion of God's earth. He comes
into court with forty witnesses to swear that a deed had been made out, and that witnesses
had ^witnessed the signing of the deed; bilt the claimant tells the court that the deed is
at home, that it is locked up and his wife has the key ; and now, — ^* Receive the testi-
mony of the forty men." It is presumptive evidence, upon the face of it, that there is
dishonesty, — not that the evidence of the forty men b not good, but that there is a flaw
somewhere.^ And, therefore, the technicalities of the law require that if the deed is in
existence, it shall be brought forward ; but if the deed is destroyed, then that second-
best evidence is good. Now, if we cannot bring forward the first^best evidence of
spirit-manifestations, the second is equally positive. Let us see the difierence between
the evidence of a passive instnunent and an individual Suppose I hold a note, mgned

DISCUSSION OF SPIRITUALISM. 41

by my brother, and there is a suit against him for it ; — what is the first-best evidence ?
It b his acknowledgment of the signature. But he is not present, oi;i he says, ** I will
not acknowledge it" What is the next best evidence ? Bring in witnesses to swear to
the identity of the individual, from his handwriting. Here we see the difference at
once. Now, in no spirit-manifestations do wc cl^um tliat we move the tables. If
we did, we would move them here. The gentleman would have a right to ask us to
produce them here, to be sure. But I claim that there are spirits, individuals, with an
identity as positive as your own, who produce those manifestations ; and if they are not
disposed to make them, we have to take the next best testimony, that of those who have
witnessed them. Gro to your courts, and they will acknowledge this to be logical, and in
perfect keeping with law and common sense. The subject of spirit-manifestations has
never been introduced into court ; there b not a record of it in time. Can you prove,
in court, that there is a God ? Can you prove the Chrbtian religion, in court ? No.
And yet, the gentleman says you can receive it only upon human testimony. Yet, I
was glad to see that acknowledgment of the value of human testimony : it was like a
sweet oasis in the desert ; for it was the only time when my brother seemed to exhibit a
spirit of candor.

And now, since I cannot bring the first-best evidence, I bring the second, human
testimony, and ask you to receive it. The Jews asked Christ the same things which
my brother asks me, here, to-night He answered, "We speak that we do know,
and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness." The manifesta-
tions were never produced, I repeat, before a promiscuous crowd ; they were always
incidental. Hume took the same ground, in regard to human testimony, that my
brother takes. " If Grod and hb angels exist, let them give me the first-best evidence ;
otherwbe, we will reject it, as human testimony." How beautifully Archbbhop Whately
destroyed such sophbtry as that, when, in a little book, he publbhed an argument proving
that no such man ever existed, as Napoleon First. My brother will not admit that the
second-best evidence affords even a probability of truth.

Th& courts consider the second-best evidence just as good as the first, unless the first
is so held back that there is evidence of dishonesty. He asks why they cannot produce
tiie manifestations here. There b a lady in the house, my own companion, who fbr
two years past, — has seen spirits. Yet it requires a state of passivity in her mind,'
to enable her to see them. Professor, I will give a guarantee, to you, of five hun-
dred dollars, if you will demonstrate to thb audience, to-night, the fact of a natural
normal state of sleep. You cannot sit there, befbre this audience, while I am talking
and thb audience gasing at you, and go to sleep. It requires certain conditions, in
order that you may be able to go to sleep. A woman full of faith and confidence sim-
ply touched the hem of Christ's garment ; her own spirit went forth to meet hb ; he fblt
the magnetism go forth from him, and he perceived that virtue had gone out of him ;
and the magnetism tiiat went from him restored her system to harmony. And yet he
told her that it was her fisiith that made her whole. Christ did not many works in
Capernaum, because cf^ their unbelief. There were sceptics there. I do not decry
scepticism. I fike honest scepticism. But, beade faith, another condition is, to ask
and seek. Not to ask as the Jews did, — Come down fiom the cross and we will believe.
Tlie conunand of Christ was, — Humble yourself, and be like a child, and you shall
receive. Be sceptical; but fbt God's sake, and your own as well as his sake, be hon-
eslily sceptical.

Can the poet be inspn^ while he is suffering the toothache ? He must feel wqH in
body ; and then he retires to the summit of a hill, or to Niagara Falls, and there, in a pasdye

42 DISCCrSSIOK OF BPlBlfUALIBM BVttTEEN

• Btete, the inspiration of nature is drunk into bis spirif, and it pours fbrth again from bis
aoul as the great living tide of being ebbs and floWs. Conditions are necessary in
prayer. ** Enter into thy closet and close the dooj^." But let a man of sccpticisdiy 4
sheerer, enter the closet, and how quickly it frightens away the Holy Spirit. Here aV^
three or four mothers in Israel, or men and women, convened together. Their heaifs
are in li^urmony and unity ; the spirit of love is upon them. A scoffer, a sneerer at tb^'
pare Christianity taught by Christ, comes into their midst; and does not the spirit take
its flight ? Do they not tell us that that peace is gone ? I want to know if the scepdc
has dnven away the Holy Spirit, — has frightened away God and his work ? or has !3ie
presence — yes, the presence — of that man, destroyed the devotional condition of the
mind of the worshipper ? You cannot take your pen to write, you cannot get on thiB
ijtage to speak, without conforming to conditions.

Now, I say, since spirits cannot bo compelled to come here, the second-best testiiaaonj
must be received as reliable. And again, since we have clearly ^bown that it is impoa-
oble for them to do so, they are exonerated from all blame. God gives the supply to
eyery demand. When the demand is created, the supply is given ; and when we demand
these influences, they will be supplied. And if my brother doesn't want it, if he is dch
termined he will not have it, the spirit-world will wait. Time wiU work a change ; and
ere long, he will begin to feel the want of this inspiration.

My eloquent friend began by speaking of candor. And I really hoped liiat he would
give us a practical illustration of it Instead of that, I never in my life heard or saw
an exhibition of the want of it, equal to that which we have just had. And, indeed, it
seems to me that want has been exhibited — I do not mean intentionally — throughooi
iiuB argument Let me show you what seems to note to be a want of candor and ao*
phistical.

In the first place, you will observe that it is peifeetly well known, to everybedyy
tiiat the Spiritualists trample the Bible* under foot, as believed by Christians. Thejr
have no more respect for the Bible than for any other old book. They deny that it
has any peculiar inspiration ; they deny that it has more induration than ShakyearSy
or an almanac, or any other work. They 9pesk as contemptuously of the characters of
the Bible as of our modem Indians. They think no more of Abraham than of Pocahon*
taa, BO more of St John than of St Tammany^ no more of St Paul than of St Patridc
0^ St Jonathan or anybody else. I had, just now, a book written by Henry C. Wright,
on the Bible; and he speaks of it as sanctioning every kind of evil, — sanctionoig.
sUvery, and all wrong, and making God a tyrant-despot The whole end and aitf of
Spiritualists is, to bring down the churches. When I talk with Spiritualists^ they sajr:
^ We care nothing about the phenomena ; what we love is, the doctrines. We like
to hear their doctrine, we love it, because they denounce ^e churches." They hate
Christ ; they hate the churches. They love sin ; and tbey rdl, as a sweel morsel, bih
der their tongue, the idea that God will not punish. I heard one, here, last Sunday,
saying, ^God will not punish sin — jost obey the law— that's all" Every mania
^hii city knows that Spiritaalists sneer at evangeiicid religion, at what Christiaasf «f
overy denomination, without a single exceptum, call religion. And, after having taken
the Bible, and, with all their ingenuity, torn it to |ueces, then when they come to this
aigoment, this gentleman, with all his smoothness and -plausibility, natural, and evi-
matly cultivated, says,— The BiUe, my reverence for the Bible t And for Christ ! And
ail his lurguments are drawn firom the Bible. He is very much in k>ve with the Bible;

ted when he seeks to defend Spiritualism, he does it flrom the Bible. The Bible is also
fiilse — Mrs. Carrier, a celebrated medium, one of the orthodox, beHeres as much of the
BSble to be true as is true, and as much as is fiJse d^ belieyes to be &lse, and in that
^7 she believes the whole — and our friend does the same. Ydt, he brings out the
Bible, all the way through, — and talks to me about candor! What is the question ?
^ Do spirits communicate, here, in the manner in which S^uritualists claim that thejr
do ? ** That is the question : and the gentleman brings forward a book, the andienticit^
of which he denies, — a book spumed by the Spiritualists, an obsolete book, the authon
of which did not know as much as the Fox girls, or Davis, — and alleges that as his proof
of Spiritualism. There is better evidence for S|Mritualism, they will tell us^ than in tiie
Bible. Why don't they bring forward the better evidence ? What have we had bat
t^e gentleman's own ipse dixU f That, and the Bible, is all his authority.

And he is very much afraid we are getting to be infidels. Here is a set of men who,
according to the popular idea of infidelity, are the most remaricable infidels the woild
has ever seen, men who utter the most blasphemies of any sect whatever ; and they are
afraid the Church is getting to be infidel I I heard a beautiful woman, not long since,
rise and declare that one of these spiritual circles was a thousand times more sacred
than a communion-table. That was Miss Huestoh. I heard another, one "bSks Macom-
ber, sneer at the blood of Christ, and say it was a filthy affair. And these are the people
that love the Bible so ! Heaven and earth ! — think of it ! — and then talk about " Can-
dor, Candor ! **

The first argument the gentleman brought fbrward in &vor of Spiritualism, was that
aU nature is in sympathy, — the stairs wink at one another, the sun attracts the earth,
and the earth the moon, and gets moonlight in return — all nature is in sympathy and
oommiinication. Spirits must communicate with one another. I should ask the gentleman
to let me know how it was that the Indians lived so long on this »de of the water, while
die people oh the other side never knew of t^eir existence. Why didn't the inhi^itants
of Australia know until so recently, of the existence of Europe, or the people of Europe
know of the islands of the South Sea ? Why did the ancient Greeks and Romans live,
as Plato sard, around the Mediterranean, like frogs aroutad a |>oiid, never knowifag of
the existence of the greater hatf of the world ? Eveiybddy knows the houses of Boston
may be full of suficring people, — yes, the next door to your -own, — and you not know
it Bev. Mr. Bcechei^, I know, says, that, when certain conditions af^ right, the evil
4)irits can nO more help coming into this world than water can help leaking through
a dyke when there is a hole there. That is, whehMhere is a h<^ somewhere, the spirits
can get through. I don't blame the Spiritualists for that It is the language of one <^
those miserable opponents of Spiritualism who attribute it to evil spirits. Pshaw ! There
are no spirits about it ; — nothing but humbug — that is all there is to it

I do not blame the gentleman. He has dotfe m well as he can ; he hat done better
than any Spiritualist I have ever heard. He has been more candid than the most ef
them. Even that virtue I will g^ve him, in the superlative degree, fer his class: for I
never met a Spiritualisti in arguoo^nt, before, who had any. But he says we must take
the testimony of those Spiritualists. Think of that ! The testimony <^ the Spiritualists^
people who do not agree with each other for five months ! Shall we take the testunopjr
of Mr. Hatch, or his wife^ We should have a beautiful case of conflicting testimony,
even if we received it But, as I said last nighty'' — and I repeat it here, — no court of
justice in the world woidd take the testimony of Spiritualists, in this case. That is, if
Spiritualism were brought into courts its testimcay would not be taken. The gentle-
vfrn- talkf about the techai^^iiities of courts, l^t nm tell him that not in court alone^

44 DISCU88IOV OF SPIRITUALISM BBTWEBK

but in every place on earth where phyacal manifestations are made, the question, the
rule, is the same. What is the matter in question? Physical manifestations. Now^
in the name of common sense — only of common sense, — when physical manifestatioiM
are the question, what ^uhl be the evidence btU physical manifestations ? Let a xsoa
awear he has a paper in his pockety and not show it; and say, *^ NO) I will not show it|
I will swear to it" Now, the gentleman did not deny that every court of justice in the
world demands that when a thing exists, you must show it. Ho says you must have
conditions, and went into a long argument to show their necessity. Who does not
know that ? Every thing moves by conditions. We cannot believe without conditions;
and one of these conditions is, the best evidence that the case admits. He says, — If
you have these, and keep them back, you are gmlty of fraud. In this predicament yoa
are. ** Thou art the man ! " — not you personally — it is only in a Pickwickian sense.
And let me say that if I ever appear to say any thing personal to my opponent, I do
not express myself a^I intend. I love him; indeed I do. I do not mean it, if I oi^
wittingly seem to transfer to him the sentiments which I entertain toward the cause
which he has come forward to defend. For, so help mo God on the throne of the uni-
Terse, I do not believe one word of this Spiritualism ; I believe it is a lie. They say^
** Oh, you are a Spiritualist" So help me my heavenly Father, I am not ' It is falsei
in every particular; it is damnably wicked, or I am terribly mistaken. I oppose Spirit-
ualism, not intellectually alone, but morally and religiously. Tell me not I am uncan-
did : if I have a soul, if I have one particle of sincerity, it is all poured into detestation
of this most horrible of all enormities that ever cursed this earth. I say I wonder why
the people of Boston have been so quiet, when this monster was at work among them.
But they say Spiritualism is dying out It is not dying out It is lying low, and work-
ing like a snake in the grass, and making thousands of converts, at this very moment.
It is not dying. I have no notion of saying Peace, peace, when there is no peace.

Now, what was my friend's reply, when I asked him that ? It was a most honest
answer — it was a most honest one — I hope the reporter will put it down in capitals.
The reason he does not give us the best evidence, is, because he can't I thank, the
Saxon for that word — he can'L It is a surrender of the whole case; it yields every
thing. I say they can't They say. We have raps, that are made without cheating.
I say you can't produce them; he says they can't: we agree exactly. What did Judge
Edmonds say ? Did he say they can't ? He says there is not a village or hamlet in
the United States, where these manifestations cannot he shown. O learned judge, you
are mistaken ! My friend says they Q^n't

Mr. Miller. — I beg your pardon, I have not said —

Mr. Grimes. — The gentleman says he didn't ; and, if he says he didn't, he didn't

Mr. Miller. — I will explain in what sense I said it

Mr. Grimes. — He can't do it in any sense. He cannot do it under any conditicms
whatever, if the chance to cheat Is left out But I don't think he would cheat ; and
therefore he cannot show it I will tell you what I will da We will have a piece of
board planed, and hung so nicely balanced that if a fly touches it, it will turn. We
will all stand back and ask the spirits to move it, and if they do move it, all shall be
conceded. "Hie spirits will not turn it Ask for a rap, and you will not get it ; or, if
yoa do, it will be when the ^ conditions ** are right The gentleman says he cannot do
it here. Mental questions are answered, — are they not? lliere are people, by the
dosen and hundred, in this dty, who will tell you that mental questions are answered.
It cannot be done here. It cannot be done anywhere. I will go anywhere, I will go

LEO MILLER AND PROF. GRIMES. 45

in a dark room, you may have fiddles, and all 70a want ; bat not one single mental
question will be answered.

MR. MHiLER.

Mr, Oiairmanj Ladies and Gentlemen : I will here very briefly explain in regard to
the evidence that iji to be received. I said that I cannot coiiq>el ^rita to come ; I can-
not force them to be present* And I say further, that, with the great class of spirit-
manifestations, the conditions of a promiscdous crowd, like this, defeat every thing like
positive demonstration. There are certain test mediums by whom certain manifestationf
which have been given, and, unquestionably, may be given, before a promiscuocis comp
pany or an indiscriminate, crowd ; but the general law is, that they cannot be given sa
long as these disturbing causes exist, so long as there is such perfect antagonism. For,
be it borne in miVid that spirits must work through us, through our minds and our coo*
ditions. But I do say that the evidence of spirit-intercourse is within the reach of eveiy
child of God ; that in every village and hamlet and neighborhood and city, there are
abundant moans afforded, of knowing that this is truth. You may have it in your own
private circles. You may have it where all is harmony, in your own domestic relations ;
but before a promiscuous crowd, in this way, at the present time, with all the antago-
nisms, I do not think that the experiments can be successfuL Therefore it is that I say
they cannot be produced. I am speaking, now, in reply to his argument, when admit*
ting that they cannot be produced. According to the rules of evidence, resort must be
had to the second-best testimony and evidence. For, if a man has lost his deed, and it
cannot be produced, the next best is equally good. Does my brother deny this ?

He has not met my iacis. It is true, I did not expect him to explain them in the debate
upon this question. There is another question, on which he takes the affinnative and
says the manifestations can be satisfactorily and philosophicaMy accounted for with-
out admitting the agency of departed spirits. But let me reply to a few remarks
winch ho has made in regard to the Bible. My brother has been firee to make as-
sertions without any positive evidence. Will he discuss this question with me ? Can
he, with what he has stated, in regard to my candor and ancerity, when I have pro-
fessed an admiration and love of the principles embodied in the teachings of Jesus
Christ, and the pure and holy inspiration which has flowed through the imperfect
channels of the past, — can he in candor, say that I sneer at Christianity, at religicm,
at the Bible ?

Mr. Grimes. — I did not mean the gentleman — I mean Spiritualists. I speak of
him as their representative ; and he knows that what I have said of them is true.

Mb. Miller. — I say, whoever has heard me speak of Jesus Christ, has heard me
speak of him as being the greatest moral representative of the human race, with more
of that God-like spirit in his breast, perhaps, than any other human being who ever
lived. But, that I disagree with the gentleman's theological notions, I confess. I have
read the Bible through and through, and I can find no evidence that Jesus Christ was the
very God. I say, if the Bible does teach infant damnaticm, then I don't believe it If it
does teach that the enslavement of human beings is right, I cannot accept such principles
as true. Then the quesdoin is, does it teach this ? I look upon all inspiratbn as more or
less fallible, for the reason that it partakes of the medium through which it comes. It is
like light flowing through these windows ; it partakes of the nature of the glass. If the
glass be red, then every thing in the room is correspondingly red ; if green, every thing
is green. Not that the light itself is so, but the medium through which it passes is. He
who will read the Bible, will find, in the writongaof Moses, the stamp and impress of ihe
character of Moses. He who wiH read the FiuJins of Davidi will find they flow through

46 DISGUBSJOI^ OlV .JPnUTtTALiaX BE7VEEN

the poetical oonceplaon of his mind. He irho will read the writiiigs of Peter or Fftuly
will find the impetuosity of Peter, and the craftiness of PanL He who will read the
works of John will find the inspiration flowing beantifiilly through his spirit — none of
that impetuosity of Peter, none of that learned cunning which belonged to Paul, baft,
more like that d the Master, — beantifbl as diat which flowed through the channels
of tibe mind of Jesns. And, knowing this to be trae, I cannot receive inspiratton
as infiillible. But why are we dragged away thus, — why am I compelled thus to
leaye the qtK)stion, and follow my brother in a side issne ? I want him to meet me
in the portions I take. He says the Spiritualists quote the Bible a great deiL
And I say there if no book in the world, that proves Spiritualism more than the Bible.
How is it that we quote it, and yet hate it so ? We may hate some ideas, some inter-
pretations of it They say we scoff at the blood of Christ. I do not believe Christ said
his blood was going to save us from our sins. I believe it a mistaken idea. I be>
lieve that if I teach young and old that you may go on, vidating the laws of your
nature, and life, and yet, at last, through the blood of Christ, yon may go to glory,
I should he teaching a demoralizing doctrine. Obey the laws of God, and you will
not need to be fbrgiven.

There are many other remarks of my brother, which he did not mean to make In
earnest, and does not wish to have inserted in the Report, and when he comes to re*
vise the Report, he will undoubtedly remove them. He says I am the only candid
Spiritualist he has talked with. This, and his other remarks of a similar character, I
pass by. My brother does not, I am sure, believe many of the things which he says
about Spiritualists.

I will now proceed to give yon a statement of a stubborn fiu^t, vouched for by tibe

signatures of eye-witnesses : —

** BosTOif , Mueh 6th, 1860.
<f AX thQ hoii||e of John Dimond, No. G-Hawkina St., Boston, in the year 1857i & young lady about •ightaoi
yean old, was carried up by alleged spirit-power, more than a distance of three feet, and held In a horlxontal
poaitioOf and tben suspended for the spaoe of ten seconds without any human ageney. This was done la
lyrlghft gafUgbt.

" On the same eyening, a ipedium sised parlor centre-table was xai^ more than three feet, in the air, and
there suspended while Ifr. Henry D. Huston counted fiffcy-lbur. This was done in bright gasli^t, without
aay touch or contact fSram any person, or any earthly power.
" I7e, the undcrsi^iad, vouch tot ibe tnlh of this-statement.

**H. D. Huston, Itenlclin St., Somerville.
Mrs. Zaipha 0. Huston, " '* "

Mrs. Sarah Bailey, «' *< **

P. C. P«ge, Myrtle St., SomerTiDe.

John J* Dimond, No. 6 Hawkins St., Boston.
** t vouch ibr Hhe genuineness of these signatures, and the yeracity and respectability of the persons.

'*A.B.CHIUI.>*

Friends, I do not know but these are the signatures of professors in your college ; I
don't know whether they are the signatures of ministers of the Gospel or whether the
signatures and testiqaony of poor fishermen. It is possible they are poor fishermen.
Depend upon it, if they are, they will be ridiculed by the opposition. Here is the tes-
timony of men and women. We shall have plenty of facts to introduce, and my
brother shall have enoqgh to *' attend to." Let me speak of other cases. I spoke to
you, last evening, of a painting, and the circumstances attending its execution. Now,
1 would say to nay brother, that that medium, the 9th of last April, went to the spirit-
world. He left the form from the village of Laporte, Indiana. For his services as a
medium, he received but little of this earth's goods. He left a wife and three little
children, as subjects of charity. That medium has gone, brother ; J[ cannot bring the
body f^ the grave, Nqw, wp shfdl haye to jl^e the s^co&d-be9t tesdnx^v.

LBO XUXBE AKD PSOF. OSgOflM. tf

I sttribate to my brotiber tlie sMine candor tat w^uoh ke ^ves me credit I belieye that
when he said, before God, he did not belieTO Sinritaalian, he spoke truthfiilly. He is
not a Spiritualist, neither can he be lill his mind is changed, and he is bom agam, into
the kingdom of troth.

I ivould state, that, dnringlhe tuo years that Mr. Bodgers was a mediom, he eac^
cated ^ve or six hundred paintings* I haTe seen a number of thmn, and conld give Ae
names of many -who have them. I hold in my hand a letter which I obtained last
smnmer, while holding a disoqssion in the State of New York, with Dr. Moran. Yea
will see, when I read this letter, why I do not ^ve die man's name : it is attadied to
this letter, and any one can see it, provided they wiU not faring the parties before Ihe

pablic, as they do not desire publicity. Mr. was at die West He obtained tha

likeness of a darling child, who had but recently passed to the ^irit-world. He obtained
a life-«iaBe portrait of his ch^d, and packed it away in the botjtom of bis trunk. He caaM
home at night He determined not to say any thing to his wife, that night about the pio-
ture of the child, who was the idol of her heart He woald wait till the next morning.
I have talked with his wife, but not with him, in relation to the picture. She told me
she rose early and got breakfast, and thought she would let her husband sleep, and in
the mean time, she would throw fhe dirty linen ftom the trunk. She drew out article
after article, and at the bottom she saw the likeness of her child. In a burst of joy and
surprise, she ran tb the bedroom, and said, — "^ Where, oh, where, did you obtain the
likeness of our darling boy ? " I have seen the portrait, and have never seen a more
beautilhl foce. The child was the darling of his parents. He had long, curly locks,
and his n>other was in the habit of turning a little lock on the forehead, where the hair
parted. The artist hafl brought out the Ipck perfectly. But, strange to say, that motJber
does not believe in spirit-intercourse. She is a member of the Baptist Church, and
perfectly priest-ridden. They told h<;r^ at first, that it was the work of devils ; but she
spurned tliat, and sgiid, " I4y child i$ not with devils." They then told her about psy-
chology and mfcnnerisiQ ; and thus the mind of that po^ woman was .set to vacillating.
I wrote to Mr. , for a statement of the fafit^ in the matter, and received the

following letter : —

«'Nkw Touc, Aug. ntt, 1869.

**Mft. Leo BCiluk, — Dear Sir: — Toor tkrov of the 11th loft., la leedvad, hATing been fi>rwanlBd hj Mn.
-— — (to me) of this city, Mking me to fonvord to yoa » fl|^BDle&t of tl|« ftcte connected with the iModuo-
tion of a likeness of my child, tbiDugh the agency of Mr. S. Bodgers, tp be nsed by you, in debate, In eeteb-
Ushing the cause of trath and in illustration of spirit phenomena. SofUras my own feelings in the matter
are concerned, I iiave not the slightest ol]|joction to the granting of your request ; although it would moel ai^
doubtcdl^y placf me upon the public stand of impeachment, by a laige number of persons, wlio axe wholly ■!!•
acquainted with my c\\hrocter for truth and Teracify ; thuf compelling ray evidence to be talwn with allowance
and under protest for its apparent absurdity. Tct, with all these obstacles, I would cheerfully comply were it
not that it would drag the name of another, who, I rondder, has equal rights with myself, into a eootro-
THBi^, most unpleawnt to her. I allude to Mrs. , idio is an nnbeUewr in, and a conscientious oppossr
of the spirit philosophy, who cherishes the memory of our child with a sacredness so dear, so pure, and so holy,
tliat she cannot endure the thought of having exhibited in a public debate, even the Ikcts in the case attend-
ing the production of this likeness. Ifrs. never d^niiad that it looked like him ; and I have often hiard

her say that it was a very correct representation of our deceased boy, and that she would not part with it <m
auy account; it was so lUbllkB. Btill aiie attributes its prodnetion to some principle in clairvoyance, not yet
msdcntood.

*^ Now, in consideration of the reasons assigned, please have the goodness not to Include any thing I now
write, in your debate; and f^her, excuse me firom giving more &cts at present, after adding tliat the Iflw.
Bess which we liave in our possesrion is a very correct one of our ehiUl, idu> left the form, without aay lSk»>
nesB of hhn, in S«ptamher, 1867, and was painted by tha hand of S. Bodgera. at Cardington, Oliio. in JniM,
1868, without collusion, description, or any knowledge of the looks of our child, wliich Ur. Bodgers coaM
have possibly possessed thzoui^ any ordinary channel (tf information at the time.

** Very truly, yours,

48 DISCT78SIt>N OF SPIRITTTAriSM BEtWlSEN

MR. QRIMB8.

My Mend, as you perceive, still holds to the position that to prove that s^HritB do com- .
mnnicate as the Spiritualists claim, he has only to read these papers, signed by nobody
knows who, except those who signed theix\, and a &w firiends. We don't know them;
we don't know who they are ; and if we did, it would not make any difference. Thei9
is not a lawyer in the morld who would not exclude these, in a moment. Not only a
lawyer — there is not a man who should preside at an inquiry, that would not exclude
it in a& instant But I wish, further, to show you that the gentleman's reasons for not
bringing that evidence into court are not sufficient. He says that they cannot give the
best evidence that courts require, cannot give the raps here, cannot raise the table
here ; — and why ?

Mr. Miller. —We do not claim to do it Tell me how we can compel the spirits
to come : that will settle the whdie matter.

Mb. Grimes. — Do you say you do not cl^m that you do it at all ? Then you have
had a new revelation, just like Brigham Young, who has one every week. Is it not
something new ? Am I mistaken ? Have I not been laboring under some delusion ?
I certainly have supposed that the Spiritualists have, all along, professed that they did
prove their new revelation by physical manifestations.

Mb. Miller. — We do not claim that we make the manifestations.

Mr. Grimes. — Well, nobody says you do. I don't believe any honest Spiritualist
ever makes any of those manifestations ; but every single manifestation that is actually
made, is made by some dishonest person, always. Not by a Spiritualist And I will tell
you what I mean by that No man who really believes that the spirit of his father, mother,
sister, and children, are around him, would be guilty of a juggle or trick. I do not
know how wicked men may be, men who think they are perfect already, that they need
not pray or ask forgiveness, — I don't know what they might do; but I do not know
how, on the principles of human nature, a man could sit down here and think that the
spirits of his father, mother, and children, who are gone, are around him, and yet could
make a rap, tip the table, and cheat the company. I can scarcely believe that men are
so bad. That is the reason that I do not charge sincere Spiritualists with tipping tables
and lying. But I do say that I have examined this matter of physical manifestations with
what little ability I have, and the result is, that every rap made is made by a rogue,— >
that every physical manifestation is produced by some trick. And, instead of showing
the contrary, they ask me to believe, and read me a document written By some one in
Ohio, or somewhere else. Why, it is outrageous I What was the reason the gentleman
gave ? Let me read his very words. He said : « Here before a promiscuous crowd,
here, amid these antagonisms, we cannot do it"

Mr. Miller. — The spirits cannot do it

Mr. Grimes. — I don't care whether you do it by spirits or how you do it ; you can't
do it at alL I will never speak one word against Spiritualism, if you will give us one h<Hi-
est rap — if you don't do it on my head, — or answer one mental question. Mark yon
the reason why he can't do it It is on account df the antagonisms. Now let me show
you the utter inconsistency of that objection. " Antagonisms." " Promiscuous crowd."
Maik you, that is what prevents him ; yet, on this very stand, Sunday after Sunday, the
spirits come, in obedience to my friend Dr. Gardner's advertisement, and raise a woman,
8om(Hames weighing a hundred pounds, and make her talk most brilliantly — move a

' LKO XILLSB JLKD F&OV. OBIXE8. 49

iroiiisti*8 tongne, — tliiiik of ihat; — and rule her will — rnle a woman's wfll, tool
Antagonions are overcome. What becomes of the aignment aboat pronuscuons crowds ?
What becomes of the ai^gmnents about antagonisms ? The gentleman says he don't
know, -^ and neither do I know ; but eyery man with common sense fbels, at once, the
inconsistency — it is not posnble to avoid it Again, the spirits (anywhere, for fifty
cents, for twaity-five, for wxpencc, I believe, will tip the tables, and tip them over —
I mean, among Spiritualists, gentune, sincere Spiritualists, — if there are any.

Grant the taMes tip. Hie table tips with persons having their hands upon it, and it
xtpt out TQ^ after nxp and txxp after tap ; and they declare it is a manifestation of spirits.
Again, the hand will be seized by a spirit, write befbre a crowd, and indite communica-
tions from the other world. I can get them by the yard — plenty of diem. Every-
body has got them, till they are surfeited with them. ' Our booksellers' shelves are
loaded with them. The literature is more than a horse can drag down hffi, on ice.
But when I ask them to just let that table tip when the hand is not on it, when I ask
them to write just one single answer to a mental question, they cannot do it. Last
Sunday, a q[)lendid looking young woman, who spoke gloriously — and not she, but a
doctor in Ohio, and a pretty smart fellow, too, — stood ready to battle with me. He was
not afraid of nfie, nor of anybody in all the world. The doctor gave me some pretty
diarp answers; ^antagonisms" made no odds. Now, why couldn't that doctor who
came all the way from Ohio — he must have come by telegraph — why could he not
answer one mental question ? He will argue with me, dispute with me, put me down,
show how much smarter he is than I am, but will not tell me one angle thing going
on in Ohia Let him telegraph me the price of wheat Not a bit of it ; — he tells
only what everybody else knows. Do yon wish me to give you the reason for all that ?
It belongs to another branch of the argument, and when I come to that I will then
tell you all about it Don't you see, my friends, that it is plain enough that there is a
little want of authentic evidence, throughout all these proo& of sjnrit-manifestations P
They paint no {uctures Aer«.

Mr. Miller. — The medium who executed that pidnting, has ascended.

Mr. Grimes. — The gentleman brought out a paindng. I didn't like to touch it ; it
was the picture of his sister : a man does not like to make any critical remarks in re-
gard to any thing so connected with another's sister, especially if that sister is in the
si»rit-world. There was a sincerity in the gentleman's bringing it out, and I did not
lOce to talk about it — and I will not talk about his aster — I respect the feeling that
dictated it. Let us talk, then, of some other painting. He says some other paintings are
produced. Now, observe yon, the medium will stand here, and imitate the handwriting
of a person, before your eyes. Why will they not stand here, just as well, and make a
portrait ? I wiU find you sincere spiritual mediums, by the dozen, who will stand here
and writ« ; but when you come to have a portrait executed, it must be done in the
dark, in Ohio, by Mansfield, or some of his fHends. I don't want to give the history of
Mansfiield; everybody knows it, and everybody who is not besotted* with Spiritualism
knows that the history of that Mansfield is one that can only make us feel badly.
Everybody knows how terribly corrupt he is — one of those men who doesn't need the
foigivMiess of God, for the reason that he obeys the laws of God !

Mr. MtLLER. — I didn't say so.

Mr. Grimes. — I hope you wont O my friends, let us not hold to that doctrine.
What man is there that llTea, and knows there is a God and that he has laws, — knows

4

50. Discnasxov <xr arauxuMaaif »bkv9en

Bfij thijDg of the frailtiea of man^ — hut; lmaw». tbat lie wi8*.agiUBit>God| every ItowHt^
timt if God piinislied oar ami witlwwt mereyy w% ihocild^ of ui.be A99tpof«^ Bq* A0L
hick. Go4 in the face and say^— *^ We obey yova. Uws- and dp noi' need, any fi» y<^ i
neas," — there is lomethiog so blaspbfamooa in ii-r faui the, g^at|ein«» does AQtbdimi
it, he cannot, in his l}e«rl» sajr it

He said 4at.in the Bible tbnea, Christ demanded laitfa^ in order thai Ins
might be per^niaed. Now, I do not doobi^at aU, that thoae .oondilapM. are the
19* the i^ible times. I cannot repeat, eimeft rery bneiy, qiy remarkfl of laeb.li^t,
npiij»n-that point* I say that those miracles were not perfimned- by natoral kMri aodfi
that there is no proof of ax^y natmal law. by which miradee can be: peitivmedi
nias and Sapphira were not struck dead^by natural law, sorely. Chriet.waa aei
from the» ^ad by natm*a). law, surely^ Th^y only want fahh. The cply eQiiditia% :
the4,.wa8.faith.; and,, surely, you havefai^h among the S^tualists. I belieiiei
thirds of this apdience are Spicitiialists^ Cau'i they get their £uth all in oqe
tcated battery, and raise the table^ or are th^ too- unbelieving ? There is not one
who believesiUiey can do it The^^tleman says they can. do it; he will say they-
dp tables — with hands on them,.-^ they can write^ they can ipeaki-^they caa;dor.«9|Ff
thing except tip tables without putting hands oo, when the room is lights where peapl^..
ean see if there is any cheating. Pianos have been raised, in this city. There isfti.-
paper, theret which says they ase rained right aps in fuU gaslight I don't believe ih.
What evidence of it have we ? The piece. of j^aiper ; — that is all. Go into any qvtikr.
doctor's shop in this city, and ho will show you a pile of papers ta show that hia miaw ■
aUe stuff has cured almost everybody, — just such stuff as that '* My grandmotl^r
took twe bottles, and was better,— r took = fow more bottles, and was entirely widll*
'* Such a one took so many more : " -^ certified to, generally, by a minister, a judge, and!
some Chairman of the Board of Selectmen. You will fii^ the papers fiiU of just an^;
efidence as that Now^ ** will you reject human testimony ? "

Mr. Miller. — I ask my brother if he thinks these names are fbiged. Would' ft
add any thing, tq the force of the argument, to bring the witnesses on the stand, hera^ lo
make, personally, a statement in regard to these facts ?

Mr. Grimes. — I think it would, in the minds of some Spiritualists, but to nobody .
else.

Mr. Miller. — I will not stop to dwell,, to any length, upon human testimony, or taa^^
timony in courts. There is not an instance in histoxy, where the visit of an angel, or any
spirit-manifestation, has been proved in court Courts have nothing to do with theaa
things. These questions are addressed to the reasoning faculties. The argument of:
my brother strikes at the root of all Christianity. And I say to you, reject thi» tealir
mony, here, and, in the mind of every honest man, the testimony upon which ChristiBiiiftj.i
is founded must go down. The position which my brother has taken up, to-day, in-thig
ai;gument, only has a tendency to make infidels, the world over. All that he may atgr*
about those ancient* manifestations being miraculous, will not weigh anything, f<Hr a-OMh
ment, when we find that modern manifestations are precisely analogoua I will not '
atop, here, to define what a miracle is. In the general orthodox acceptation of the -
term, it implies that the laws of natare have been su^aded or transcended ; but nmrny
'Of the most celebrated divines have come to the conclusion that the miracjes ware
Amply manifestations of nature, above any thing that we have yet learned or under-
stood, and that when we come to ooniprchend better these laws, tiien these mani festa -
\tioDa will caaaa ta be mybteriool. And new, to ehoHr you, frienda, that those anoieBt '

wonden wem wA, in the tente in which my iMrother vtee- die tann, n&rielet, bnl werQ
gpyemed by oonditieafl, I ivill q^Mk oToim eate^ DaaM wUied. to ne mmI do mm u m
with q>i]itBr. Now, the gentlemaB say » that in aodeni tknea, whm mm asw iplritiial
beings, it was a nuracl^ A nurac^le disragaffdt att oondition8 ; a moaele luii aadung ta
do with conditional finr it it above all thd lawa of natnuvu Blit Dnnial fiMid it Mftea^
iary to fiuat; and he &itcd for three weeks^ and at tho end of thfee weein he taw a
qnnt Here^^by asystemof&stinghedestrooredtlie gross, animid iiddain his body,
gRTO more acti^vity to his qairit^ and in thai cooditioa was prepared to wte wpmtik Hie
greatest efforts of the meek and lowly Nasarene, were ezkifaited aftsr ha had fitted
fiirty days and forty nightii CSonditioas were necessary fiw htm. It it is add, of Christy
that he did not many mighty wofka in Gi^»emanm, becanse of dieir nnbilie£ Were
tbose '* migfaty werka " miraclet? Do yen sappeae the mibelief of the witaessea wonki
have any eiect npon iwades? The cases are precisely analqgoas. Jesus Christ
placed his hands npon a man's eyes, and he was restored to sight Jknd yon recetTe it
on the testimony of the histcmaijik You have it net finom Christ; Christ does not him*
self give the aoconnt, bat yon take it on hearsay eyidence. [Mb. Mnj^int here re-
peated his fonaer statement of the core of the blmdness of Mrs. Brown, of Ut^ See
page 34.] If yon claim that the ether is a miracle, the modem instance m a miracle :
and if the mod^n one is not a miracle, the other is notb The idea of a^co nntin g ibr
TOamfrff^jn"g, upon oae plan, and Uien of acconnting dflTerently ibr those precisely
aaidpgoas, 18 ahsurd. Herettemen who can read the traits of the character of others.
Jfaus Chript read the thoughte of the woman of Samaria, and tdd her how many hna-
beads she had had. Now, that can be accoonted for aa natmnd prine^esj as well as •
the caaea of to^y. • And Charles- Beecher, a{q)ointed by the Predbyteifian Synods of
Brooklyn, to investigate this amtter, says that if we attempt to accoant ibr all these
maniifatati<m% npon supemataral theories, it wiii destroy the Bible, and its only pro-
tection will be its pasteboard covera; for, he saya^ cases precisely aoahigous an goivemed
by nataml laws. Now, I say, if yon r<|jeet this testimony, yon vejeot tiie tBstimoay of
the Bil^ witnesses*

But, my friends, do not iq[iprehend thitt I am wiHiag to let fipfritnalism stiB)d*or fall
by any other syptem. I do not bring this in' here, as pooof that if Spiritnalism is no»t~
true, Christianity is not true. By no means; for I have inade a direct argofaent, ahd
brought forward the positive proof that Spiritualism is true; and I have only intro-
duced tbe^ihle, mid the fods of the past, to show thiair analogy, and to corrobomte and
coafirm the present manifestaitaonaL

But I iriU give ase or two more foots, and my brother shsdl have plenty of time to
answer them* It is true, he says, that it seems almost impossible that men and women
shoold sit down and triiie, amid the most aaored and endearing relations of lifo and
death. Yes % we capoaot bt^ie ve that one-half of the world has concerted together to de-
ceive the other hal£ . I have xaoi^ confidence in haman'natore thail to MAm^ tiiis; I
cannot conceive of the blaektiess of the heart of that man or woman who' would thn0'
trifle in these saered relaCioiis. What do they obtain for all this?. There may be a
fow pvfclio medHiaift who have veCeited aomethisg like remuneration. Bat there aj^
at<le»t one huidrad and fi<^ thousaid medtMnsj in the United States, in private hfo,
cut by their acjifoaintanoes, taroedaway fiem then? sdhods, oafled insane^ cs3ied< fooI&'
Isthis the reward^gbrdkhonesly ? Dn Garditoir has-damdnitraaed Mi stnberity, here, in
thia place. Whenheftedy jliad with oaador iniitaA thoscgentliemen to-cOAod fotrward
ai^'e»|Biinei it wai oaetif thct mast pifatiaeB^eMteaof the troth o0 the prhieqiliBribr
fMkfffM im^ftfj^^m ■ XhaiiMM desims that he hfls^liaes taken n]p^

58 DISCUSSION OV SPIRTTUALISIC BETW8EN *

bodiljr, and carried from the J[)ed to the floor, and has witnessed other remarkable manilbs-
tatMHM : and, placing as much confklence in them as he did, he thought he mi^t bring them
btfiv^ the public. Does it not demonstrate his candcv and earnestness, that Ins mediums
came inward, willing to present the manifestations. I have shown, here, that it oan-
not be done at all times. As to the manifestaticms to be produced here, — this is no
place to produce them. This is an excited controversy. What young \idj wishes
to«ome forward, here, to be catechized by you or me, under these circumstances?
ISbne: and you know it There are some spirit-msmifostations which I beliete spirits
can Gontfol more readily than others. I may sit down here and address an orduunry
kifet^r to my brother, with confusion and noise all around me ; but if I wished to go down
into the strata of thought, if I wished to make a labored effort, under such a snrro«md*>
ing lit would be imposrible. There are some manifestations that can be publicly pro-
dnoed, no doubt ; but the conditions necessary for these pontive fkcts of whicb we are
here speaking — and here I simply take my own experience in it — require passiyity dn
the part of those present. The conditions are so nice, with some manifestations, that t&ej
are easily turned ; with others, they are such 'that many difficulties may readily be over-
come. This principle my brother knows to be true. This is no place to induce these
manifestations ; but there are candid and honest-minded men who testify that tiiey
have witnessed them ; and yet my brother says the proof is nothing but a piece of
paper. He does not respect this evidence even as rendering the &ct8 any more proba*
ble ; he rejects it m toto* I have shown that, according to his own statement, when the
fixst^best evidence cannot be got, the second is taken ; and Mr. Rodgers cannot be here.
The gentleman refers to others. Let me say, Mr. Mansfield had nothing to do with
Mr. Bodgers. I am not here to say that Mr. Mansfield is dishonest : if he 4s, one c6nnr-
terfeit doesn't prove that the whde is false ; on the contrary, it rather confirms t^e idea
that there is a truth, of which the counterfeit is the imitation. Ninety-nine failures
never disproved one positive deuKmstration. Long years ago, in the Academy of
France, the questbn of mesmerism was introduced — that philosophy which my brother
teaches: and Benjamin FranMin, together with other savans, pronounced it a humbug.
Did that^destroy mesmerism? Let me say that in such public investigations as this,
fn&i the prejudice which acccnnpanies, they do not give us half the opportunity, to ktfow
the truth, that we should have if we should go quietly, passively, but earnestly, into the
investigation.

But I promised other facts. I will give one. Mr. Noskh Tyler, of Madison, Madison
County, New York, was formerly a sceptic in regard to the immortality of the sooL
Although respected by his neighbors, as a candid man, he did not, as he told me, beHeve
in a future life, — to use his own expreanon, he didn't believe that man had any more
immortality than a mullennrtalk. £te had parted with a father and brothers, and he
said he believed they were fisrever dead. He had a little boy, the idol of his parents
and eompanions. The boy was something of a poet One day, Mr. Tyler was grafting
i^iple-trees, and the boy said he wanted to grafb a certain little apple-tree on the hill-
mde. £Qs father gave him the instruments, and he grafted it The work prosperedy
. and the. boy was very proud of his tree, and was in the habit of goingto that tree to sic
beneath its shade, when he wished to be alone. In a short time, the spirit of the diild
fled. He stepped into the spirit-life. The fiither and mother determined to trans-
plant that tree, the &vorite of their lost child, to the garden. The transplantaticHi was
not known to the neighbors. At the time of the removal, the &ther and mother ex-
pressed fears that the tree would die in consequence of the transplantalKm. In the
coame of two or three years it diddfe. Widiin three or ibiir yearsi Mr.aad Mrs. Tyler

LEO SULLER Ain> PROF. GRIMES. bh

were at a circle, at the house of James Peck, in the village of Deansville. A lady was
entranced. The couple todc their seats in the crowd. Mr. and Mrs. Tyler, and the
only remaining child they had, a young man, were asked to stand up there. And then
the medium turned to the mother, and said, — "I anf your child." Ah ! tibiat &ther
believed his boy was dead. The child improvised, through the medium, the following
Tones in r^ard to the apple-tree. (Let it be known that, of that circle, not one mem^
ber^ as they declared, knew any thing of the circumstances I have previously narrated ;
tiiey were not known in the yicinity.) I do not produce the lines as a piece of literary
merit, but amply for the sake of the test which they afford.

**TwaMm arm noMyoa m iodiuiebhxf or Mks. Yah Ihnmir, vbom thi skbb ov Eoonni BawsBTM

TTUB, AaKO 12 YMAMM.

** When from the hiU-ride you raaared
Vj little fiLTored tree,
Twas not the little tree which you lo lored;
\ Ah, no, bnt it wu me.

** And when yon bore it from the lot,
Where 'neath the bank it grew,
I Raw yon place it near the cot,
For I was tiwre with yon.

« And there I heard you gayly talk
Abont the tree which grew
Adown the htll-side, on the baidc,
Vw I was watching yoo.

M And as you talked, I came 10 near,
I looked within each <|ft;
And there I ree<^gnind a fear
That the apple-tree mJ^t die.

M And «a you Tiew each withering bou^
Let it remind you^of the past;
Ton labored to save me once, — bnt ndv
I live among the blest.

^Vor now I'm blessed with beauties bvl|^;
I see with unTelled eyes.
Beauties are twofold in the Ught
Of mj ikome in the upper Ales.

*^ Beauties are transparent here;
They glow with a lUb divine ;
And every flower a light doth bear,
Of its own sweet native dime."

Then the child addressed his mother. She told me that, fiir a long dme, she had
been accustomed to have beautifid and singular viaons, in her sleep, which she had
never mentioned out of her family. Turning to her, the medium said : —

'* MMIher, 'tis m« who tiuows aeross
Thine vision in the ni^^t,
Those beauties which doth bear, the i^kisi
Of our celestial light.

"These dovelike pinions, as thsy floal
Upon our sea of light,
Are but the images of thought,
Tlirown off within thy ilghl.

5^ DX8gi9lli<>V C WIlUTpAUa^ BETWEEN

** MoChir, thow 4gfat »Qd.ftdxj
Jloating in our Uquid 86»,
Am iMil tlM Mght ami ftby^ttblMUi

<!!«&' jfOch t oomqutuiication to thlit lootW, given mid^r micB circmnttaticeiy tttajfe
ttet mcKhef imnioral ? O friends, ask your own souls. Mother, ask your own simL
TouHave a tender child who has passed before. If you realbed that that child conld
read your inmo^ thoughts, would it make you iipmoral. apd licentipus ? No, no t But I
lAA to say one word more, in regard to tl^s occurrence. Mr. and Mrs. Tyler were cgm-
pletely overwhelmed ; they could utter hot a word ; the fountiuns of the soul weird
bff^njwp. Xho audience «a|i in almo^it hreatble^ slleqce. Wl^entbe pi^i£n|;m^(Bi^
able to express themselves, they explained the circumstance of the grafting of the
apple-tree and its transplantation ; and then there was not a dry eye in the room. I
will not say how sacred that scene was ; every thing is sacred when there is purity in i

the heart But that man till then believed his child was dead ; to-day, he stands up
and sees the veil parted, and that child looking down to him, full of love and goodneasL

A word, brother, upon another matter I say there is need of repentance, of asking
God to forgive us and to help us to do beti;er. I wish we could live so in accordance
with the laws of our spiritual being thaA there should bd nothing to have forgiven. I
am sure that no Spiritualist lecturer has been so blasphemous as to deny man's need of
repentance. You cannot find it in any Spiritualist newspaper ; — you cannot find it
in the J^anTier q/*Zi^A^ in the SpkilutU 71fi/tf<jrrap^ in any -Spiritualist paper. I never
knew an intelligent Spiritualist but said, that every transgression of the laws of God is
followed by its punishment, and that there is no escape from it.

I must very briefly touch upon some points that the gentleman has gone over. He
says this is no place for the production of the manifestations. I offer to go to any place.
I will go, with him, anywhere. If the antagonism of this room doesn't please him, I will
go to any room. I will take a piece of paper, write a word upon it, fold it so that the
contents cannot be seen, and if they will tell what i^rd is written there, I will never
apeak against Spiritualism again. And they may have the clairvoyants that they speak
of — the gentleman speaks of my experience in mesmerism, and I believe I know some-
thing about it — they may have clairvoyants, and spirits^ and Satan and all, to help
them ; — just let them tell what is written on that paper. The gentleman says there are
tens of thousands of witnesses, and two million believers, and thousands of these mani-
festations ; and I only ask for one — one answer to one mental question, under any cir-
cumstances he chooses, provided it is ao arranged that they «annot open the paper.

Your city is full of stories about such questions being answered; and I stand ready
tp sjye up the whc^e case, if I can get an answer any whom. I know vhat tfi^se Sgir-
iioalists can-^p, and what they cannot. They can't give the answer to a qoental ^ues-
tioni And among all the Qiediuins you have got, -. — and you have them.by th^ hundr^
«— ahd among all the literature you have poured forth by these mediums, if there is one
tingle new idea that has come thpough thuDi, I donlt know what it is. Here we have
the whole spirit-world, with all their experience, with all their opportunities, in that
•tate, to go to Europe, to Central America, -rany where -r- and, with all, they can't give
US one idea ! Here are men longing for knowle<lge in science. I have spent my whole
life, tr}'ing to find something new in nature, -— I have spent a large part of my life in
trying to solve one problem, — and tltese s]>irits cannot give — not to me, but to any
one — a single new fact I have heaxd l^trs..IIfUQb, undw the influence of tome philoao-

I

\

£CO MILLBB AVD FBOF. GBIIIBS. M

flier, lecturing on geology in a manner in wliick a icboolboj might bave done it It
waa creditable to ber, as a woman half educated, bat discreditable to a sjnrit who has
been so long over the world, looking down throagh the geological strata, to know no
aore than that, and to state, with some things which I knew, long before be repeated
tbem, to be true, othea mhkh weNTperfectly absurd, to any man with tiie least smattep-
Hfg of science. '

MsL, MnxER. — I win here say, to my brother, Qiat if he '^ll go to tiie telegraph
office to-morrow, he can get these two facts, re-affirmed. This testimony is not fap-
Mdhed : when we get the wires working, the " conditions right," he can get it If he
win pay the expenses if the statements are confirmed, I wiU give the expenses if they
are not, and Ave dollars to pay for his trouble.

Mb. Grimbs. — Why go to the wires, whfle these wires are aU around town ? Here
ii a man who has a machine. He will not show it, bat wants me to buy stock in the
patent He will not show it; the conditions are not right : he wiU Inring many a man
who has seen it 1

Here they stand : they ask as to giro up ike Bible and take stock in a new religion,
iipon precisely this evidence. It u an exeeUent religion ; they are very pious ; they
reverence Christ greatlyj indeed I I beard a 8{Hritaalist say, in Buffalo, the other day,
(q^eaking very ebquently about Jesus Christ, that Christ was very weU for a young
Biaa, conndering he was a Jew, and prejudiced -^ thought a great deal of Christ, under
the circumstances, bat he didn't know any tiling when compared with the men of now«
A^ys.

■ The gentleman doesnt Eke Mansfield. Bodgers is excellent, but not so Mansfield.
There was a time when every Spiritualist in tins city swore by Mansfield. I offered
&Te hundred dollars, if Mansfield would examine a letter and read the enclosed writing.
I went with a firiend, who is here, and he thought I was a little wrong ; — I put five
hsmdred doUam in a letter, and said I woald give it to Mansfield if he would tell what
the InUs were. He looked at me — and thought the eonditionB were not right, Rodgen
ii dead, the gentleman tels us, and therefore we are to take this testimony. Suppose a
gaadener says there is euok a kind of fhiit, very eurioos and excelleiot. You doubt it.
<< Show me a speciflMn." " Oh, the tree is dead." ^ Is there not another?" ««0h,
that tree is dead." Anft he .iwfiBaaf to psodooe tile fitiit Are yott to receive this as
•videKce ? Did «B •these'piotmv'^ainting mediums<^ with Rodgen, or were they aU
finghtened out with Mansfieid? The feBtieman Imsed ^what I eaid of the wrfting.
Here b a person cured of blindness. Why, is not the world fuU of such cases. There
are healing mecUums s: why wiU tii^y not heal. J will bring sick people here and cover
them up so that you cannot distinguish them, and if the spirits will teU wltich is sick,
and which is well, I wiU give up the whole controversy. The greatest humbug ever
ioiieclived is that of ifaese healiti^ medrntns. 'Theyoii^ to be sent to the Hotis^ of
Cdrreietion for bbtaiiiing money under "fidse preftences. Let me give a fact. . I migh't
^^ an immense number, and wffl, one of th^ days, when I get into one of my stoiy-
tisllkig iboods. IKThefn l^etdring on Xfape CoB, Ih^ among my hearers, a t)r,
6hanAer,aSpitit(iaHstheiahigmedittm. The Yiextdoor'totiiehous^e where I lived, lihere
irm a woman en^k. fl teU this oft thto authority dTall the neighbors, and do not tell
tbeistory toproveiiiy-poAtSbnT I'don^})rov6 any thiiig 'in tiiattmy; 1 teH it because
I Bsn hi tii« mobd tif itl^g jstones,) ^dr« was, in attendance, a scientific J>hy-
ritfaaa-^n^verinWhlsMtfie;^ scientifiiB man mhkls his business, aind is allowed
t5 lKi%idrii, fhe ^qfnadk ^tai^ nolbriety and thrives upoii his quabkery. 31ie Sciifet-

^6 DISCUSaiOK OF M^IBZTUAiLIStf BKTWEEK

Ufic phjiiieiau was told be was not wanted, any longer, becauFe the people in ^te^
house were Spiritualists and Wanted a Spiritualist doctor. The Spiritualist doe-
tor came, and he asked what the sficntitio do-jtor had said. They said he had
ordered beefsteak and oranges for the patient The medium anked the spirits if that
beefsteak and oranges were all right. The spirit, answered, Yes. So, the ^^ healuig
medium'' asked in what way the beefsteak and oranges were to be administered. Tlw
spirits replied that he n^st eat them, and take hold of the patient's iiands, and ditis
(communicate to her the benefit of them ! So the doctor eat it all up — the beefsteak
and oranges, held on to the woman's hand, — and sh(j died. She went into the " spiritr
world " — she wasn't " in the foi?n," any longer. That is a fact: and if any of you ate
sick, send for Doctor Chandler.

Mr. Miller. — Bring your witnesses.

Mr. Grimes. — I will bring the doctor himself. If you are sick, let me send fiir
him.

The gentleman couldn't let the question of evidence alone, — though he said ha
would, — and keeps harping upon it Why, how does the case stand, my friends?
This Spiritualism relates to physical manifestations. How is it in science ? When I
go to a scientific man, and he says that such a thkig is so and so, who ever heard him
ask you to believe his testimony ? Go to Professor Agassiz, go to the Harvard profea*
sors, of whom you speak so contemptuously, and see if they ask you to believe theit
testimony. They produce the things themselves. K Agassiz tells you about a jQsh, ho
doesn't tell you a fish story; he brings in the fish, barrels of them — he has got a new
museum, on purpose to hold the fish. You Spiritualists work like a Frenchman who ,
undertoc^ to prove that the world was round. He got into a discussion on the subjocit,
and people said he had not made out the case : he declared ho would not argue any
longer — it was true — upon his word of honor. Spiritualism is true, upon your word
of honor, and upon the word of Mrs. Brown and Mrs. Gerritt Smith. Who, for a mo-
ment, would receive that, in the case of astronomy ; yet the cases are perfectly analo-
gous. The Frenchman was going to fight a duel over it If my fnend had a loaded
pistol in his hand, and said, — ** On my word of honor, Mrs. Brown was cured of bliod^
ness, by a healing medium," I must say — ** Oh, yes-r-I believe it -—it is all right"

The gedt^man alluded to my knowledge ^ mesmerism, 4nd spoke of the fact of
FrankHn being upon a committee appointed to inquire whether mesmerism was or was
not a true science stating that FrankUn condemned mesmeriam.

Ms. Miller. — I said that thie Royal Academy of Sciences had a committee ap-
pointed to investigate the claims of mesmerism, with Benjamin Franklin as a membefr
of it, and they reported that it was a deluaoh.

Mb. Grimes. — I suppose the gentleman referred to it with reference to my being
somewhat acquainted Tfith the subject ; and I suppose I have experimented upon it with
as much interest as any one. Now, let me stand up, here, and give my testimony that
Franklin was rights — that the report of that coounittee, signed by Franklin, was per>
fectly philosophical, with all the lights he had* And all the pretended improvements and
discoveries concerning mesmerism, from that day to this, under 4ho names of'* biology," and
^ psychology," and " phreno-magnetism," and ** hypnotism," and " s|nritualism,'' are humh
bogiB. I say that all these are different names for the same thing ; an4 that all there is oi
Spiritualism, that is not jugglery, is mesmerism, and all of biology, and phreno-magnet-
ism, and hypnotism, that is not jugglery, is mesmerism. It is all the (utme thing ; just aa
irith all these different names of liquors, it is rum, the whole of it; just as ** Schiedam

LEO MILLER AND PBOF. GRIMES.

fi7

Schnapps " is only ^n. No : Franklin has not had justice done him. Let that statue, yon-
der, stand, to show the vulgar, that such a man lived ; but with those who know the story of
his tife and labors, he needs no monument He brought down the lightning from heaven,
and taught us that it was electricity. Talk about the ^ conditions " ! Let them prove
their assertions by experiment When Franklin first promulgated his electrical theory,
they laughed at him, in England. They did right ; — Icthimgiye^hem the proof. I think
I have made some discdvieries ; and if I do not give the proof, langh at me. Some men
did not ** believe the testimony" of Franklin, in regard to lightning; and many men
tried it ; — and one received 'a stroke Of lightning and was killed — he got a physical
manifestation. Franklin was the first man who sounded the ocean currents ; for he
was the first that taught that by letting down a thermometer it could be ascertained
ivhen the ciurent was cold and when warm. When mesmerism was brouglft b^^bre
bim, he laid such and such was the case, as was claimed, but they did not explain it
rightly,^ — nine-tenths of it was imagination. He didn't tell what imagination was ;
he left that out I tell you that ninety-nine hundredths of all mesmerism is imagination.
Your nonamse about fluids, and all that, is humbug.

BAR. MTTiTiHR.

I shall define, tonnorrow evening, the great difierence between experiments with
the physical elements of nature and experiments with the mind. When my brother
says they are analogous, he is mistaken. We may bring physical elements under our
power ; but when experiments depend upon the state of a mind, we cannot control- tiiem
at oorwiU.

/
' I

■ ■*

I. -I

FOURTH EVENING.

THURSDAY, MARCH 8tb.

Mr. Moderator^ and La^e$ and OenUemen: My opponent, b the conne </ ftaB d»-
bile, has declared that the production of the manifestationfl claimed by modem Spiritnal-
im If an occupation too inwgnificant fat spirits to be engaged in.

Mb. Gbimes. — I beg the gentlenMnls pardon. I harm mSd aatodi ^Sinmg,

MA. MiLLEB. — Has not the gentleman ridiculed the idea that departed sptrits tied
knots in Judge Edmonds* pocket handkerchief?

Mb. Gbxxb0.*~I lead the Judgfi's own stoiy.

Mb. Millbb. — Did jou not ridicule the tying of the knots in his handkerchktf?

. 4(P^ Gboobs. —I J9^fely read tha gentleman's own stoiy,

Mb. Milleb. — Then let my brother say, to this audience, that it is laddaHhs ftr
spirits to return to earth and tie knots in a man's handkerchiefl

Mb. Gbimes. — I don't think it is ; but I said nothing about it.

Mb. Milleb. — My brother has not been in the least explicit, I will acknowle^^
£yery one present has been left to draw his own inferences. And that inference, is,
that he impeaches the testimony of every witness that has been presented.

My brother acknowledged, last night, the fact of the execution of that painting, in the
fi)Uowing doubtful st^'le. He says, of me, that he cannot attack me, he will not at-
tack me, — oh, no, for I state the circumstance upon my honor, — I hold a pistol to his
bfeast, and say, *^ Upon my honor, it was executed thus." '* No, no," he says ; ^^ I am not
going to &ce the muzzle of that revolyer." He leaves you to infer that Leo Miller has
fi^bricated the story, or is a party in the deception. Now, my brother has ridicided the
mode of spirit-manifestation. The question is, ** Do spirits communicate with men oa
earth, as claimed by the modem Spiritualists?" On almost every occasion when
■peaking of every single fact, that I have introduced, — or many of them, — the gentle-
man has seemed to look upon them as if the mode of manifestation was insignificant I
haT6 asked the gentleman a straightforward question, — are they insignificant, or are
they not?

Mb. Gbimes^ — J answered, I don't care how insignificant; I deny that any mani-
festations have been made. I will accept the smallest thing, if yon will give iL Let us
hare any thing.

Mb. Milleb. — Here, my friend r^ects all the testimony and fiu^ts which have been
adduced. I say to you, upon my word, before God and his angels, that I have made to
you a trathful statement in regard to that painting. My brother will not receive it ; he

IBO MnXXR AMD VKOV. cttiiaa. M

wtU not beliere it, but leares you to inf^r tiiat be impeaebet my tettiiBony ; and yet be
tarns rigbt ait>und and calb God to witness tbat be is not a Spiritualisil If be eannol
veeeive your testimony and my testimony, bow can be eacpect ns to reeore bis?

Mb. 6«iMSS.-~^Idon'twantyoiito.

Mr. MiLLrau — No; be bas alroady acknowledged tbat be does not widi yoaio
iveelve «iy c^bis statenents. I desire, fiiends, dial you receiTO tbis testimony, and
Iveigb it cavefhlly in your minds, and, just so finr as oonriction is carried to your ioidsi
treasure it up in good and bonett beasts.

Tbepe is noting inogni^oant in tbe mode ai ^>irit4niefco«nse, tbat I can see. I
eannot see so much insigniioanee in Uus nntyerae, perbaps, as my brotber does.
l!bat spirits should employ modiams, and produce raps, and more physical, ponderable
bodies, is nothing ins^ificMit. We «nploy raps in communicating with each odier.
A little mere than a year ago, bonfires were made in yotnr dty, bells were rung, cannon
ired, — for what? a few raps which were beard in a telegraph office ? Ko, but be-
cause Queen Victoria, sitting upon the throne of the British dominions, could transmit
ber thoughts across the great waters^ in an instent of time. Tet, that has nerer been
repeated ; Hhat phenomenon bas never taken place since then ; but there stands die
het; and if another one never lakes place, thai Ami* u so stubborn, itself, that the
infinite God cannot make it as if it had never been. Facts are stubborn things. My
biotber may stand here and deny tbmn ; it afiects not the tratb, in tbe least When a
a phenomenon is past, it is irrevooable.

Ibere is nothing impgnifioant in tbe f)M)t, if we look at tbe principle tiiat underlies il
If we look at Ju(%e Edmonds, with half a dozen knots tied in bis handkerchief, suppoit-'
ing lAiree violins, and -look at the fact alone, it is insignificant; but if we look at Ae
principle which underiies the phenonienon, then there tt in it, something great, and
■Bgnanimoos. My firiend said to me, bere,-^W«i:M spnifs come and produce sudi
manifestetions — move tables^ and so forth? Dees not "God make the vermin?
Why' does Qod make tbe viper ? It would seem to be sim|4e business ibr God to be
engaged id, -^looking at it as a mere ^t, — to make ^ mosquito. In that ligbt il
appears to be small business. But when we consider ibe principles that tmderiie thesei
eraatiire i^cts, -r- when We nBdentimd tbat- -dmse oreatures are links in the great diaiit
of cgdsteace in vnivarsal natare, then tberei kub te^nificuice. It is an insignificant
fiut ibat aoi apfde ibofdd ML fttim a tree updn-tiie bead of Newton. It is of little mf
portanse. iJaiiisrl)ing^thaty faow-ev0r, tiiere is<4lie great' principle of gmvitstidn, wbi6i(
led to the philosopher's Wonderful discoveries. If we will look bey0Q4' ^^ ^Pi W^
examine the principle whick underlies it, and the instruction it may impart, it |s not.so
insignificant It was considered a great achieveknent, a great U-Iumpb of mind, that We
could overcome tTi-j^llKitir ^itemi^' tbstlw^ <eoiild speak face to fiiae, wbila stAding'on
the opposite sides of this mighty sea. But who shall say that the oltstacles which ^piiits
are obliged to overcome, in communicating with us, are not a thousand times greater
than those which we have conquered. ])o you Itil^w Mie nattrre of iSiait ytA wbkb

1^4^s>fj}ft.^ti4]:Bi^i|& iwr^^^^^r jPo j^ftu J^nf)^B9^nd it .^ wf^.tipyt you can B&y that

spirits may do this or that ? No, we do not understand the conditions*, ,. ■ , v' i

My brother says, — *^ If you have produced these manifestations once, produpe tb^m
again." Does not all the worid believe th^ m telegraphic despatch' was sent across the
iMAfW^OcMii^f lil(r^Qtfi(Br«^dwyklbeoiiMit:aimia>^tbsr^MSlt^ ItisiAid
t)M^.Pa8^(«^ by liiii^fpba^ ttyingoillir

chemical experiments It was a long iime b i ifa a isi lyidd* «iBliar>*lM cW ato Jite'

60 DISCV«8I02f OF SPIRITUALISM BETWEEN

qick, a manner as to insure the successful repetition of the effect ; yet he discoTered the
piii^ciple underlying the process. My brother has been in a state of mind which he
cannot reproduce/. I am credibly informed that Starr King has said that one of the
greatest efforts which he ever made, in sermon-writing, was at a time when he was
lying upon his bed, in a dreamy state. , His intenor mind seemed to be opened ; at
QncQ:^e arose from his couch, and, in an incredibly short time, wrote the best sehocm
ibpl he ^v^ delivered. : , And yet, he says that since then he cannot obtain that condi-
tion c^mind again, ^ow, will my brother deny the fact, because that condition of mind
cannot be again produced ? Yet, that is the position which he has taken, here, to*
night He has said that he would put his name in .an envelope, and seal it up, and
if t)(e spirits would give him the name there enclosed, he would forfeit five hundred
doUa^s. Under circumstances, and conditions favorable, I have not the least quettioa
thfl^.it could be done. I avex: to you that I have demonstrated that fact, to-day, for
njaclfi. In my own room, I carefully wrote eight or ten names, and folded them in a
doven thicknesses of paper, carefully put them together, and laid them upon the table, and
neither I nor any man upon God*s earth knew what was in a particular ballot : and yet,
two or three names were given. Admitting that some one else is honest as well as
yqnraelf, how can you account for these facts ? I will say to my brother, -<-' knowing his
pn)clivities to meet, with all the opposition, with all the determined persistence, in the
world, every effort on the part of the medium, — I say that our mediums will not be
pecmitjbed thus to have him come before them, and, perhaps, go away to misrepresent
them. At least, they fear that he will misrepresent them, as he has begun his criticisoL
hf^re^ of Mrs. Currier. I produced the name of Mrs. Willard Tripp, as excellent a lady
af-Uvei in Taunton. Had she been the wife of some professor, he would have meiH
^u^ed her name more respectfully. Now, I say to him that if he will write down t|^
i^^nsB of twenty deceased persons of his own acquaintances, the papers, containing the
iMMPoes, to be sealed in envelopes, put upon them his own private seal, hand them to
any. three gentlemen in this audience, in whom he may have confidence, — save hi*
Qjri^ son, — they may take the papers, thus secured, to a medium in this city, and I will
gnafWDtee, — that is, I will ventore, at least, — I will not prcunise, — that the namee
wit^ the envelopes shall be given. I say I will make the effort, not here, upon the
pohKe stage, but through three men selected from the audience, who shall go to. a sittii^
zoono^ where all is quiet, and, though I will not promise success, I am willing to ezper>
ioBi^nt. This shows my own candor ; for, if I thought there was deception, I would not
Tpbmteer this much. Has my brother confidence in three men in this audience ?

11b. GBiMES.-^Yes,8ir.

Mb. Muxes. — Will you select them?

•Ite. (fbiMSS.-*Tes, sir. And wiUyoahddtothatpvdiKMBtioo?

IIr. Miller. — Yes, sir.

. ifbs. GBiMES.r- What day? Wfaathoor?

Mb. Miller. — To-morrow. I cannot say, now, at what hoar; I hare to consult te

oonTenience of others.

^HCr. Grimes. — We win do it: that is good.

. Mb: Miller. -*^I am glad that my brother aeeepts my pnposaL He mnst oomplj
nitt the conditions. He mnstwrite die names of twenty of his- acquaintancesi idiom lie
kiiovt to have pasied into the q[Mrit-world.

LXO MILLER Ain> PBOF. OBIMV8. 61

Mr. Grimes. — I thought it was three of them.

Mb. Millvr. — No. Pat in enough of them. Do not write the name of Henry Clay,
or some other distinguished man who has passed away. Rit in the name of a mother, a
aster, or a brother.

Mr. Grimes. — No : I will leave them oat, if you please.

Mb. Miuler. — There is to be no chance, here, for deception. Let none bat yonr-
aelf number them; so that the medium cannot know whose name there it in a particu-
lar envelope. And if you will have the name of a sainted mother, or a child, or brother,
or iather, — once, fin* yoar own soulV sake, say, ** I will pat down their names.'' I do
netreqaire it

Mr. Grimes. — For that very reason I would leave ihem oat.

Mr. Miller. — I do not innst that they shall be any pardcnlar namea^ — only that
ihey shall be those of personal acquaintances.

MR. ORIMB8.

The gentleman opened his rcmarics by saying that he would snm up ; and in som-
mmg up, he passed over the whole of what he had spoken. He said he would answer
some of the objections I had raised, and answered an objection that I never had raised
and never would ruse. Anybody must know that I would never raise such an objec-
tion as that which he mentioned, in regard to the insignificance of the manifestations.
Every man who studies nature knows that the most mighty things are made up of the
insignificant. The very planets are made of atoms, and it requires as much of miracle
to raise the smallest object you can see, as to raise a planet, if it is to be done in yicHar
tion of the laws of nature. I did not speak as I did, in the matter of Judge Edmonds,
because the affair was small. The Spiritualists say of me, — " He cannot reason ; he only
ridicules." If I bring forward the most reasonable argument, they say I only ridicule.
If I show that their positions are so absurd that any man with the slightest common
sense cannot hear them without a smile, they say I ridicule. For that very purpose, I
read Judge Edmonds' own statement, — to show that it was ridiculous, not to show that
it was untrue. I did as the prophet Elijah did when he challenged the priests of Baal
to call upon their God for fire from heaven to bum the sacrifice, and, when, after they
had called on Baal, from morning to noon, in vain, and no answer came, he said, — '' Cry
aloud, for he is a god ; cither he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or
peradventure he slecpeth, and must be awaked." I did the same.thing. If you call
that belittling them, I belittled these alleged manifestations. I ridiculed falsehood, by
showing it as it is. I spoke contemptuously — I always do — of Spiritualism. The
Spiritualists complain that I do not treat it respectfully. Why, in the name of heaven
and earth, should any lover of truth treat falsehood respectfully ?

Mr. Miller. — Is this &lsehood ? Do I lie, in regard to this painting ? Ton need
not spare my feelings.

Mr. Grimes. — The gentleman wants me to abuse his sister; and then the Spirit-
ualists will have something to talk about He dragged in that picture of his sister, I
really fear, by the advice of some of these SpiritnaGsts. I have a reputation for ridi-
culing, and last night, when I read the words of their own advocate, I was accused of
ridiculing the salgect Bnt why did the gentleman bring in the name of any woman,
here?

63 DISCUMIOX OV SPIBITUALI8M BSTWBXll

■ ■

A Voice m the Audience. — Ab evidence.

Mn. 6Ki»eflk^<Ifc was no evidence at idL He ttkjB Mn). Tripp says that someboc^
elae aajs that nambot\y ejae Bays.

Mb. Miller. — I don't see in what way a sister who passed into the spirit-world siit
years ago could, by any possible means, be implicated in the execution of that paintixig
two 3rear8 aga I cannot see how he is to implicate her, to account for that painting.
It is inconceivable. If it is a matter of fraud, I am a party to it ; and I am wiOlng the
gentleman should suppose how it could be done.

|Ib. Gbuies. — Aocordii^ to my ideas of courtesy and propriety — I don't know-
what the gentleman's are — the name of a sister is not a proper subject to be bandied
about, here — that of a sister living is not, and, certainly, not of one who is dead.

Mb. Miller. — Tell me how I introduced my sister's name in such a way as could
lead to her being implicated in this controversy, or the painting.

Mr. Grimes — Did he not bring in his mother and his sister, and how he loved
them, and how they had appeared, to mediums, since they had passed into the spirtt-
world. But I d|d not apswer it, because I considered that a subject not to be talkttd
of. If I ridicule,.! at least spare those feelings* I brought in the name of a quaok
doctor.

Mb. Mxllbr. -» Bidnt you bring in the name of Jesus Christ?

Mr. Grimes. — Indeed I did ; but, I hope, in a manner different from that of the
Spiritualists. They bring in the spirit of Jesus Christ, to rap Yankee Doodle upon the
table — I have been present when they did it They speak of him as inferior to Davisi
or the Coon boys, or the Davenport boys. If I spoke irreverently of Jesus Christ, I
did not mean to do so. I don't think I did.

I passed by the subject of the gentleman's painting ; for the reason that it is no evi-
dence. I ^11 attend to the paintings, in good time. But I was saying that I do not
care how insignificant a fact is: if it is only a fact, that is enough. That is my p(»nt
!Nbw, in regard to this charge of ridicule, made by some of the Spiritualists — not this
gentleman alone — the very air of this room is full of the accusation. Who is there
that does not ridicule Spiritualism, except those who believe in it ? Who can speak of
it, without ridicule ? Didn't they charge Everett with ridiculing it, in a speech at Plym^
outh ; and was not Judge Edmonds angry because he ridiculed it ? Did not the pre»*
ent president of Harvard College write a letter, — when you said he was a Spiritualist,
and he was obliged in that mode to publish his denial, — in which he spoke of Spirit-
ualism with such utter contempt that the Spiritualists fairly writhed ? I haven't it here,
but I warrant the Spiritualists have not forgotten it. He treated SpirituaUsm with
not so much respect as I did. They brought their nonsense to Professor Agassiz ; and
I have heard the Spiritualists, in a private house, here, complaining that Professor
Agassiz didn't treat them decently and respectfully. You see I am not the only man
who fails to be respectful. Professor Pierce and Professor Faraday were not respectp
ful ; — of course they were noU I do not hesitate to declare to the world that I do lopk
upon those evidences and manifestations, with the most perfect contempt And if I
should get up and say, "I have a great respect,"-*- and **I presume," — and *^I haive
no doubt," — I should belie myself, Ifor in my heart of hearts I believe it is fiJae. It ■>
not true, as a matter of fact I ridicule falsehood ; I sneer at the attempt to pass it off
for truth : and when you present it for truth, I pull off the mask and say it is a lie.

LEO MILLER AND PROF. GRIMES. W

Hr. VyTTg*- — I bope my bxt>tlwr will Dot corrQ€t Uieae xemarkfl, when be comei
toiievifle the Beport

Mr. Grimes. — I hope that gentleman wOl do it himself If I am in error, I 9m
happy to be corrected on the spot Let me say, here, that if I anywhere commit m
error, — though I may be combative, though I may be earnest in my belieft, yet show
me that I am wrong, and I am humble as a man can be. I reverence truth, and before
that I bend. I am willing to do what the Spiritualists do not, and that is, ask fbrgive-
nen when I do wrong. And this leads me to speak of the pomtion which the gentle-
man, last night, controverted, — the charge that the Spiritualists do not believe in the
need of forgiveness. I repeat that this is their doctrine. I heard a medium declare
here, last Sunday, in very eloquent terms, that the Spiritualists obey law and do not
ask God's forgiveness. And she took much more consistent ground than does the gen-
tleman. For, observe, the Spiritualists say that law governs the universe, law which
God himself does not and cannot alter. That is their doctrine, — tliat every thing is
'done by law, — that there is no God with disc-retionar)' power to arrest the operation of
a taw, however cmelly it may, in any case, seem to act. And, therefore I ask^ here,
was not that lady, last Sunday, consistent V There being a law to every thing, why
pray to God for its alteration, who cannot change the law which binds him as it does
you ? Why pray to God, who is the slave of bis own laws? Why ask him to forgive,
when there is no forgiveness ? My friends, this is an important and vital point. Chri»-
tiaoity is founded upon the doctrine of tlie nu^rcy of God though Christ, capable as God
18 of dispensing witli law, and show4ng mercy. For there is no merry in nature: the
lightning strikes without mercy ; the ocean swells without mercy ; the hurricane sweeps
without mercy ; and th(»^ is no forgiveness for sin, unless God- has the power to ditpense
with) law, as our governors have to pardon; That is the basis of Christianity, and
that the Spiritualists deny. The mercy of God is itself a miracle, and Christianity is
foondcd upon it So much for that point

Do tJte spirits of departed human beings return and manifest thehiselves in the way the
Spiritualists claim f I say, No. The Spiritualists say they do, and the burden of proof
is on them. It belongs to them, as I have shown, to prove these manifestations. The
best evidence must be brought in, here. The gentleman acknowledged that they could
not do it I stated, and he admitted, that in every court of justice, on a trial like this,
tlMy would be bound to bring it ^ — a court would not hang a dog, on the evidence they
have produced. If there is a lawyer here, he would say so. They must bring the best
evidence, and the best evidence is, the thing itself It is so not only in court, but
among scientific men. Perhaps Galileo did see the four moons of Jupiter, but if he
cannot sec them again and show them to another, the presumption is, ho is mistaken.
Now, these modern spiritualistic manifestations come under the head of experimental
science. The Spiritualists say they take place under a law of nature, as much as thnn-
dcr and lightning, or any operation of nature. What are the conditions? Credulity.
You must, indeed, have enough of that ! What sdentific man ever made that a condi-
tion ? In the New Testament times, they say, faith was necessary, and it is necessary
now. Suppose a witness is brought into coui-t, to prove any thing. Does not every-
body know that not only in a court of justice, but in experimental science, and ev.ery-
where else, the witness must be examined ? The gentleman brought in a picture, and
swore in his own case. Why, who cannot gain h'is case in court if ho can swear
to it himself? I have heard pretty hard swearing, in court, and in some cases
a man can Himself testify. But it is pretty well understood among lawyers, that

64 mscuBSioir 6t spmrnrALisM BSTirsxif

a maA cdtadodaiig a case in court, does not swear it tiuxragh. Now, imagfiie a^iawj^
ccmducting the gentleman's case, in court, and depending, for proof of his entirid caM^ ''
npon his own testimony. Again, when a case ccnnes. in court, no matter who swears to
it, you may demand subpcenas, and call in the other witnesses who saw the occurrence .
in question ; you can submit them to. the severest examination, — whether they were
drunk at the time, whether they are in the halnt of drinking, whether they were ever
in state prison, whether their character is wanton. You can examine them on the xpi-
nutest point, — to prove that they cannot be believed. Kow, if you can do tins, where
not twenty dollars is pending, in court, can you not do it in a case where every thing
valuable, in heaven and earth, is pending? Here are thousands taken from their
homes, frcnn their religion, from their politics, from every thing that made up the ex-
cellence of life — ^

[The speaker's time here expired.]

MR. iwnr.T.tTP

I would ask my brother what Spiritoalist paper has put Andrew Jackson Daivig eo
much above Jesus Christ

Mr. Grimes. — I didn't say a Spiritualist paper.
Mr. Miller. — What Spiritualist literature, then ?

Mr. Grimes. — It is the doctrine of all the Spritualists. The Spiritualists take this
ground, and only this, — that Jesus Christ was a medium, and only a medium.

Mr. Miller. — I would also ask my brother which one of the Spiritualist journals, or
what work of Spiritualist literature, has advocated the idea that man need not ask for-
giveness.

Mr. Grimes. — I didn't mention any journal, and I didn't say there was any, but
eaid it was the doctrine of the Spiritualists. If I have made a wrong statement let me
be corrected.

Mr. Miller. — Are not the doctrines of Spiritualists to be found in their books
and papers.

Mr. Grimes. — If you will take their books and papers and make out anyregnlar
system of doctrine, you are smarter than I am.

Mr. Miller. — What does the gentleman consider Spiritualist doctrine ?

Mr. Grimes. — Faith, you have all sorts !

Mr. Miller. — The gentleman has made a statement in regard to the belief of
Spiritualists, and has not brought in a single one of the twenty Spiritualist papers in the
United States, to support it. I take all the gentleman has said, as mere statements,
unauthorized.

Mr. Grimes. — If I am wrong, let me be corrected. If I am wrong, I am sincerely
wrong.

Mr. Miller. — It is most emphatically denied that the Spiritualists deny our need
of forgiveness. I think we ought to ask the forgiveness of our neighbors, and ask God
to forgive us, for not supplying their wants. «

And I ofier, hero, a solemn protest against the assertions which the gentleman has

• • LXO MILLEB AND PBOT. OBIMEB. 65

mftdb. This lias' been the entire tone of his aif^nment, from the outlet, — asserdon
wMiODt proof or evidence. There are hundreds, in this place, who hare gone to the
iMnise of Mr. , of the £xpre» Company, and have there witnened intel-
ligent spiritaal manifestations. The j hare seen a heayy piano raised, when the only
|MK9on, who touched it was a light, qmre man and he playing on it, in daylight, or when
hng^ gaslight was boming. And yet, all this testimony amounts to nothing I Are
Ibere any here, who have yisited the house of the gentleman I haTe named, and ha^e
NflB this heavy piano raised from the flocv under the circumstances I have described ?
[Three persons arose, in the audience, in response to this question.]

Here are three witnesses. One is a gentleman of this city, well-known to almost
ete^ person in Boston, who gives in his testimony. [Mr. Miller referred to the per-
sons rising.] I am not to any extent personally acquainted with the gentleman, yet I
hare met him. Here is another, who my brother says is a truthful man. The whole
Christian world brand me as an infidel, if I do not receive the testimony of a drunken
Hng, who Uved three thousand years ago, who, while drinking in his banquet-room, saw
a hand write upon the wall " Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin " — " Thou art weighed
in the balances and art found wanting." And here are two or three, — and I can pro-
duce hundreds more, in this community, who have seen this manifestation ; and yet
my brother says it is no evidence I He heaps contempt and scorn upon every one who
dares to speak out his honest sentiments in this matter. Is this the course of debate ?
Is this fairness in argument ? Let me say to you, when he says that nearly every •
opponent of Spiritualism has pursued the same course that he has, I will acknowledge
that it is lamentably true. Too often have our opponents wielded only that argument,
or miserable attempt at ailment, — the wretched weapon of ridicule. My brother
boasts of it ; and he has, for his companion, a professor at Harvard. I wish I had, here,
the number of the New York Ledger^ in which the editor speaks of that distinguished man
as fiflling, from his high station, to low, pothouse abuse. Such talk affects the low
and vulgarHDoinded, but nobody else. Our respectable exponents have abandoned this
mode of attack. President Mahan, of Oberiin, comes out and acknowledges the fitcts
of Spiritualism. He acknowledges the production of these paintings, through Bodgers.
In the city of Cleveland, they have appcunted a committee, taken a darkened rocum, •
divested the medium of every thing that might possibly serve as a means of deception-;
aoid after having his person examined to see that he had no painting previously in his
possession, ho has, in a few minutes, fhxn that darkened room, which contained not a
nngle piece of furniture, come out with a finely executed painting. President Mahan
will not deny the facts. His theory is this, as I have been informed : that Mr. Bodgers
18 a clairvoyant, that he goes into a clairvoyant state, and looks into my mind, and there
sees an image of my sister; all the vital forces of the system become concentrated in
the artistic faculties of the mediuxn, rendering him an intuitive, instinctive artist, and
then he paints. President Mahan gives us instances of persons executing needlework,
and paintings, while in a somnambulic sleep. But there are great obstacles in the way
of this theory. There is a wreath of flowers about my sister's head, in this psunting,
which she never wore here. She tells me these are spirit-flowers, which she had gath-
ered and placed about her head. If merely an intuitive artist, as President Mahan
daims, Bodgers would not have placed them there.

■ But I am not arguing with President Mahan, but with my brother here. When he
makes such statements, as these which he has given, I want, at least, the evidence of a
newspaper. Yet he finds fault with the evidence which I present. Is not the hand-
wziting of a man good evidence of his identitjy ? Is not identity proved in courts by the

5

66 Discumiox or mmavjouifm miamrnvxt

eildbitioiiafletten? -HeMyBoartetlimmiy^odyiiiot'kMig-id^g. iAaadye^9im%mm
l^een huag on such teitiinony as tlus. -I kore* offered to go wijUiifiin to Miettekigrii^
uflkd, and send to my witaeBtes for « coitobaraiion of. their {rtatemeBte. DMs lie •«■!
rely upon any thing that he reoeiVesin'the telegraph 6ffice ? FriMHJby'^faen yentgetJl
lettWj-doyon throw itawi^ luad-say^iere is ttQ.pvoof'diftt nn^A.^^nOnirioteit aa-nw *
ports to have oigoed k ? There aite ten»of tlM>u8andfr of fkcts, in -sapport of Bpsntiialiiat
which I have not time to • cite. I have recently been ■ looking oi^er ' ^ Feodyia 'om
QoundaFy of tbe Spirit World,** by Owto ; and; from all the -press ebme forth:
of the candor and iateUigenee shown in the ' coUeclioa of the facts wfaidi he -vikles.
And I have just read the following extraordinary fact, which is said to have taken place
in the old country. A man was sick, and was told, by a spirit, that he should recoreJi^,
and live, and was further informed that he should have the strongest evidence of the
spirit's power to cure him ; namely, that a large ponderable body should be moved, to
convince him. And a large rack, weighing several tons, was moved, more than half a
mile. I cannot vouch for this lact, or say how well founded it may be — it may heFe^
after be better confirmed ; but, I.ask, admitting it to be true, how do you get rid of tkas
testimony?

Never, in the annals of time, has the Christian Church tried their Bible before a
court of justice. They have indeed appealed to the reasoning faculties. But never
has it been tried before a court Why should the gentleman wish to require, hel^
the proofs which a court would demand ? Why should he say, unless this evidence
* (Boincs in the shape of the technicalities of law, it amounts to nothing? MinisteTs.go
into the pulpit, and, sabbath afler sabbath, reiterate that In ancient times these maia-
festations took place.

I did intend to reply to my brother in regard to some statements which he made
last night, denying that cures were effected by healing mediums.

Mr. Grimes. — I beg your pardon. I think I did not say so.

. 'MsL MiLLBR. — Did you not say that oar mediums coidd not prediice cunt ?

Mr. Grimes. — I did not deny that cures afe produced, but only that they are pro*
duced by Spiritualism.

Mr. 'Miller. — Iwill give you a fact Captain Knight, of the steamer Lewistdii',
winch runs between your city and Portland, had, some time ago, a passenger xxpoa Ids
boat, who had been fluent to this city to have a palsied arm amputated. The ci^»tain
suggested to this man that he should visit Dr. Greenwood, a healing medium. He did
80, and in one hour's time, that withered, palsied arm, which had become diseased, and
which eight' learned physicians had declared must be amputated, ^as malde whole by
ftttnply lading on of hands, and the man used it, and it was as stnmg as 6ver. t>r.
Greenwood is at No. 15 Tremont Street; and within a stone's throw of this building
are men who can come in and testify that, by simply laying on of his hands, they'hav<6
got up from sick-beds where they were prostrated. Gro to the Traveller office and ntake
inquiiy there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?

The gentleman asked, last evening, why did not the spirits commimicate the fact of
the existence of the New World, and why do they not make some great discoveries?
My friends, why did not Jesus Christ tell us that the world was round? No: he let it
pass, with the rest of mankind, that it was ^ flat as your hand. Why didn't he make
iiiat simple revelation ? Hundreds of years passed by before we knew it Why did
Aot he reveal the Cbpemican system, — and tell mankind that beyond the great waten
-* there was a new country ?

What do you expect of the spirit-wotld? Bere are the heathen nations, to-dliy:

We can sail to their hcxnes in afew da^ys ; — why do we not give to them all these fimits
cf civilixation ? Ah, it u hard, — there is An in^penetrable yeil between the BushB^an
and the Anglo-Saxon, liaj there Qot be the same difference Between oorselyes and
ijpfitiial b^ngs, and the same difficulty in the communication between them and ««, as
between ns and the savage of the wilderness, or the Hottentots ? The Christian world
lias been trying to civilize the Indian race. When Columbus landed here, there were
piBioiia of them. -Hate theybeen Christiaaiaed? No: they have been almost exter-
minated, and are fast disappearing. With all our virtue and goodness and all our
higher aims, these great ends are not accomplished, -r- and we have bean in the land
of the Pilgrim Fathers for two hundred and forty years. Yet because in the last ten
jean the spirit^worid has not caused man to grow spontaneously, and grapple the great
pfineiples of the sjnritoal universe, there is no truth in the doctrine of spirit-manifestar
tioa 1 I ai^ again, will my brother meet these facts ? — and particularly the .testimoi^
in die case of tiie sick man whom I have mentioned ? Does the Christian world expect
that I am to receive the testimony of a drunken king, ^nd yet reject the testimony of
my neighbor? Am I to receive the testimony of men who lived thousands of years
ago^ and yet reject that of the neighbors around me ? If he will show that the tesd-
mony of the former has any better foundation in truth, then I will grant it Then
vhere is the ibroe of all this talk that these were miracles, and the present eases are not
analogous ? Christ healed a withered arm. 6a did Dr. Greenwood. Will you show
tbe.difierenpe ? Dr. Greenwood cored tiiat man's ann by laying his hands upon it, and
nothing eke.
[The speaker's aDotted twenty minutes were here axhaosted.]

I win attend to Ifr. Greenwood's case when I cpme to it Yon npght pie up those
oases to any extent, and I will help yon. If you are going to give the history of quack-
ery, I win give yon more such cases than a long-eared horse can draw.

Mb. 'MxLLSt^. — 'I will bpng in that man who was cured, and let him teadQr.

Mel Grxmes, — I can bring a thousand people here who can swear that they were
cored by Brandv^'a Pills, and Swain's Panacea. Every one knows that die newspa-
^ pers are fiiU of these ^< ftcts." ^

Mr. Miller. -—Does that ^sprove the fhct that a man's arm was cured eighteen
hundred years ago?

Mr. Grimes. — No : the ground taken by Chri9tuuis is that Jesus Christ perfinmed
what he did, by a adlftMous power, susp^ding the )aws d nature. The gentleman
knows that I have said this again and agiun.

yMR. ]|||D!iXER.T-WiUycu.sl)Ow.]?ae.w!kermnp^^^
ing out the dogmatical assumptions of the Church ?

..Mb. : 6^^1X0.^^^ The gjemji^mwin know?^ t^jfrnnM. Qi«UM>t:be explained.

-Mr. MnxKR. -— Whaw is die ^fifierence between the two cases ?

Mr. GRncss. — The difiesQnce is tluuv-r-that.inJlie 09e CAPjerwe bare the t^is(aii|9^f
of, the.Sible— iMEid we Jl^ve n^rtliing p}^, t^ ^^orepce is (hii^t m t)^ i^asej^f the
n^ri^les of j0|j|u,we,iAye,noi„eiiideu^ t]^ t}tf^.,t^. j49CeM.Al]9 e^^ptiu^ d^Qijala.

68 DISOUaSIOK OV flPIBirUALISM BlG*rMrEEN

stood the gentleman's question, be wanted me to show the difference between a
miracle —

. Mb. Miller. — No : show where there is a difference in th# phenomena of the pres-
ent day and the ancient day. One man lays his hand npon a palsied arm and it is
cnred ; another does the same, no more, no less, and it is cured. If both cases axe
precii9ely alike, the same laws must govern them.

Mr. Grimes. — I don't know that I needtoaigne that If both cases are aHke,'
they are alike ; — I have no more to say.

Mr. Miller. — That is it, brother; they are just alike.

Mr. Grimes. — Well, that is enough. And I would like to know, while the grille-
man is in the mood for explanation, by what law of nature his big rock is carried a half-
mile. I would like to have him call up the spirit of Isaac Newton, and ascertain by
what law that rock is moved so far, just to convince a common sort of man that he was
going to be healed. A most obliging sort of spirit that ! Now, here, in Boston, the
gentleman and all his spirit-friends, cannot move half an ounce I But there, off in
Oiuo,—

Mr. Miller: — I said, the old country.

Mr. Grimes. — I beg your ^rdon. That is very essential I would not like to get
it wrong. I beg your pardon. I stand corrected.

The gentleman says that ministers ask you to believe. What do ministen
say? Let me justify them, though that is not my business here. I am under no
necessity, in this argument, of defending the Bible at all, or of defending ministers. The
real question is, — Do these phenomena take place ? And if I acknowledged the Bible
was false, it would not help the gentleman, at aU. The question is, — Do spirits com-
municate as the Spiritualists claim ? But a minbter affirms the truth of these miracles
recorded in the Bible. Christ was raised from the dead ; the world was made thus and
so ; water was turned into wine ; Christ was crucified ; repent, and believe. You torn
to him and say, — ** I do not believe the Bible. What evidence have you that all these
things took place?" The minister says, — "You have the Bible." "WeD, Idonot
believe the Bible ; I want more proof." He says, — " My friends, all the evidence liiat
I have had, I give you. I keep nothing back. I have no more. 1^ you do not belioTe
the Bible after all I have said, the responsibility of rejecting it is on your own soul : **
and there is an end — there he stops. Does the Spiritualist do the same ? No ; he says,
— " I have seen a rock moved, or somebody else did ; I had a portrsdt painted, when there '
was no humbug ; I have seen a piano raised right up." " Can I see it ? " " No." The gen-
tleman brought a letter, and gives a list of names of witnesses, aa4 wants you to beUeve
the story. The letter says, — " I wouldn't believe it if I had not seen it" I want to
believe it ; and he will not let me see it.

Mr. Miller. — What is the relevancy, to the question be£>re us, of the gentleman's
remarks on ministers and the Bible ?

Mr. Grimes. — Why, ministers, and churches, and Chrisdanity, and the Bible, aze
trampled under foot every night, so that Christians do not want to go and hear soch
blasphemy ; and most of those who do come are Spiritualists. I have asked, and heard
the reason of this, and I want to answer, if it does make the gentleman wincci.

Now, as to Mr. Bodgers. This gentleman has risen, here, and told a stozy abont his
sister^ portnut No chance totill'in witnesses. Li a trial, the neighbors are called
in, to &id oat if there is ndt iome felsehood, somewher^ Bdl her^ there is no chance

LEO MILLBB AMD PROF* OBIME8. 69

td do tfaii. ^ BeEeve this,'* thej saj, in substance, ^ or tell some one lie lies," — seeking
in liiat way to draw you into a personal quarrel. Now, a gentleman who* is a Spirit-
ualist, well known in this city, told me, and he also told a most respectable ph3rsician,
tliat this Mr«-Rodgers punted two spirit-portraits for two different persons, and that
when you bring them together, — one having been executed in one place, and another
id another, — they are just alike. Mr. Bodgers painted a portrait for Mr. A., of his
friend, and in another place Mr. £. got one of his departed friend ; and when you come
to examine them, they are die same tM|g^ copied. Mr. Mansfield traded in these
tMngs; and when I was in this city, attTO time when he was in all his glory, and I said
it was a humbug, I was called upon to prove it, — as if a juggler who should play a
trick, should call upon you to prove it was a trick. It needs only common sense. Are
there not things which your common sense refuses to permit you to believe, even with-
out tr3ring diem? What should you think, if a man should swear that he saw the sun
rise in the West ? You would hear a great many men swear, before you believed that.
How many men will you believe, when they swear that a rock starts off for half a mile,
to convince some one that he was going to recover from a dckness. Christians believe,
indeed, that a rock was rolled fWnn the sepulchre of Christ, by a miracle. Heavens
and earth ! if there was a law of nature by which rocks were rolled off in that way,
shouldn't we have trouble with our paving stones ? Am I to blame, if I ridicule that ?
I am so constituted that, as Martin Luther said when he stood bef<»re the Council,
chaiged with promulgating his doctrines of heresy, " I cannot help it." When I heard
that story, I couldn't help thinking it was just a little enlarged. The Spiritualists will
pardon me. I believe Mr. Mansfield humbugged ; and I believe Mr. Rodgers hum-
bv^ged my firiend, a little. I don*t doubt that he is ancere. The punting looks enough
like him to resemble his sister. A great many have said that it was so much like him
that it is only putting a little femininity upon it, and it is he.

The gentleman speaks much of these mediums. I have said little about their contradict-
ing one another. Do they agree ? Is it not a rule, everywhere, that where witnesses dif-
fer they destroy each other's evidence ? Mr. £ly was a Spiritualist, and performed their
wonders, and was cried up as one of their wonderful men. He came out and showed
that he had humbugged, and showed how the rest did it. So much for Mr. Bly. No
matter whether he lied in the first place or the second. Mr. VonVleck, who was a
Spiritualist — and, indeed, I believe he is something of a Spiritualist yet — after having
humbugged many people by these manifestations, came out and showed that the mani-
festations were a trick, and showed how he Jid it; and he does us the honor to be pres-
ent, to-night, to hear me. There is another of your apostles — perhaps you think he is
Judas — there is Mr. Cole, who is said to be a pretty likely man — and, whether his
statements are true or not, Mr. Cole was with "NGsa Coan, and accompanied her in her
public test exHbitions. I was often met, by them, with a *' How do you explain that ?
— do you mean to say they lie?" And in New York, the other day, my fiiend Dr.
Hallett asked me to speak, at a Spiritualist meeting where I was present, and I rote
and said the whole thing was a humbug, — and there was quite an excitement. Up
stepped Mr; Cole, and said, — ** Mr. Grimes is right" Some of them charged me with
lying. He said, — "It is not true. I have followed Mr. Grimes, upon his track,
again and again, and I am bound, in honor, to say he is right." So much for
Miss Coan and Mr. Cole. And he believes in Spiritualism ; only he explained
these phenomena — there was a little humbug in it Then, there were the Coons.
Who does not remember the wondeiM haunted house in Ohio ? And I was then
called upon to account fixr it I said it was humbug and trickery. And, sure enough,

fO DI80I7B8IOH Of BmanSJOAtm BETWEEK %

tiM Coons i^toi to 'New Tork; atid there gftre tbeir peifeMteces. IbH momo irtefe
aioitiid the room, in a yery wonderful manner, till a gentleman went there with a'dnk
laateni —

A Voice in thi£ AuduCnce. — That was in the case of ihe Darenpbft boyi.

*

. lift. GsiMES. — If I make any error, I will thank anjr gentleman to correct aie. I
quIj catch these things from the Spiritualists.

Then, there was Mr. • . And they it^ — I don't know whether it was so --7
that they caught him cntting up a miracle ib the wrcmg way — a little over the lefti

Tben, there was Mr. , who spoke ail night, — and they said he was inspired hj

qniits. When I was there, he became conyinced that the whole thing was a hmnbog,
9fid rose up, and publicly said that though he had been honest, wheTi he experienced
these things, he was conTinccd that he was yrrong. Then, there was Mr. Sonderland*
Don't you remember the manifestation he had, — that he was going to reform the whole
worid ? And then Mr. Sunderland came out, and, though still a Spiritualist, said that
instead of Spiritualism doing so much good, it all comes from a herd of devils, — and
advised people to let it alone. Here was the testimony of one of your own foUowera.
I hope these '* facts'* will be ^' attended ta" Then, there was Mr. Hatch, who married
ft beautiful woman who was inspired and went all over the country, leaking. She went
down to Lynn, and asked scientific men to discuss with her; and when she appeared,
she simply showed that she couldn't discuss at all. Then, there is Mr. Harris^ the verjf
St Paul of your Church, has come out, lately, in London, and instead of finding Spirife-^
ualism inaugurating such a new era and causing such a wonderful enlightenment, he
warns all honest men from dipping into such a filthy pool as this is. I have here, hia
Latter, and it is a good long one ; and if you are fond of hearing such, I hope the reporter
will get it and put it in, for the edification of my Spiritualist firiends.

MA. MILLBR.

Again ahd again, my brother proceeds to heap contempt upon my ^^ds, I alliided
to a case — and did not say whether it was so, but only that in the future it might be
lietter confirmed ; but I had recently read a csise which is said to have happened in the
old country. He sa^s that none but a orazy-hcaded Spiritualitit would believe it. He
says you must pardon him if he docs look upon it with contempt — if he does ridicule it.
Is the brother aware what he is doing ? Really, I am surprised to find that my brother has
so soon tm*iled infidel, aAd ha^ gone to ridiculing the Bible t For the case I mentioned, I
read in the twentieth chapter of Sccdiid Kings.

. Mr. Grimes. — I jbeg the gentleman's pardon. I referred, in the first part of ngr
remarks, — fortunately for me, for it seems he was cunning, — to the Bible, and laid
the wonders there recorded were done by miracle, and not by a law of nature. He laya
the stone moved by a law of nature.

Ar. Miller. — My brother muitt bo cautious ha^ he ridicules my facts. I waa
speaking of the fact, — not of how it was done.

He. Grimei^. ^-I beg the gentleman's pardon. The gentleman did say tibat these
ficts — and that is the understood rule — took place by a law of nature ;-'— and that is
what 1 was controverting.

r Mr. Mi tLKR. — I wtM talking of the phenon^non, without saying how it happened.
Bat my brother need not be sensitive — I shall not take his hat if he otkn it tome.

UM> MILLKm AMt> PROF. GBIHSS. 71

ll^fllj; m.the twentieth cbiqtter of Second Sjngi is a itorf which the gentleman thoo^
%lUtle exaggerated. But, friends, I have not began to tell the whole. Hezekiah had a
f(tm ahont him — in the -stomach, perhaps, — and wanted to know if he ^uld get welL
GlJie Great Spirit told him he should ; the infinite Jehovah assured him I Hezekiah
mmld not take the word of the Lord. *^ Bring in your evidence," he said. ^ What proof
«3l joa give thai I idiall recover ?" AndGod said, — ^ Shall the shadow on the dial go
teward, ten d^^rees, or back ten degrees ? " Hezddah was about as smart as my fiiend.
H!a said it wouldigo forward, ten degrees, of itself; anybody knows that ; *^ but if you
intt>t«m it back ten degrees, I wiU believe." And the infinite Spirit is said to have
heea;aa aooommodating as to do it! This could have been done in no other way than
lQritop{nng. the earth in its revolution, and roUii^ it ba^k ten degrees, which would have
ipoved all the rooks and mountains weighing ^ several tons," more or less, thousands of
laifes^ instead iof half a mile. I hope the reporter will put this down ; and I hope too,
if the. Cawrier printing office has any type that will tell the truth, they will come out
and oay that I^rofessor Grimes has ridiculed tlie &ctB of the Bible. My brother must
be canlioiis about ridiculing my &cts, hereafter.

, MjSiJmA has saiditfaat becausewe cannot bring forward evidence here^ the house is
natf fiiU, — that the opposition will not oome out. The opposition do not come out, be-
qajMe tiiey cannot see these &cts met Hh&y go away, and error hides itsehT Jn shame.

asy friends, had I, as ho says, heaped contempt upon the Bible, had I trampled
^ undeae my foet^ had I spdien meeringly of Jesus of Nasareth, I- guess some of your
4mfy papers would have taken advantage of it l^nee they could not say any thing
against us, they have wisely kept silent Had I taken the pontion my brother has
tried to represent me as oocupying, tiiere would have been enough said. I stated
the eourse I was to puraue^ I entered-into this discussion, not for the purpose of a peiv
aooal contest, not to curry the &vors of the press, or to obtain renown ; but, befiev*
ii^ and knowing Spiritualism to be true, I have come forward, here, and presented
these ^M!ts: and, indiscriminately, Bible fiMstsand aU are ridiculed, provided my brother
doesn't haj^en to knoiw that they are in the *'• big book."

Friends, this is iny last speech upon this question. I have now presented the evi-
dence. I have shown, fifom the universal testimony of humanity in eveiy age of the
world, that they have believed in a system of guardian angels, they have believed in
the prisence of invisibJe intelligences. I have shown, from the Bible, that through a
period of four out of ax thousand years of the history of humanity, spiritual beings were
daily in the haUfc of visiting men^' My brodier hta not shown that the conditioiis;
^h0Yeby they did so,, have ever been revoked. He has talked about the former mani-
ftsMiitions being mirades, and the present not Hch The Christian Ciiurch has as-'
samed that they trere miracles. The Bible dote not declare they were in opposition to
thdIklirsoC natulre; they havO' assumed ib And the gentieman has not given a single
ayipiment to prove it Many <^ those raanifestatibns are above our comprehensioii..
But whether miracles or not^ ^y are pveouety analegou* with cases in our day ; and'
spkntuid beings acooiiq»lished the work. Was it a miracle to move away the stone ftotA
tha Jfipilkilwe ? K aoi why (fid an angel oome ^erc to do it? Is it a miracle for me
t9.tdcdtup a stone waning fifty pounds? Na Why, then, is it a nurade, in the
c^ta^f i^BiMiiitiiai beingr?- ^he -^ble doesnot say thiit its wondisrs were miracles. ]|''
hafOtipsoduoed eviSlMiQoo^my faeCs; I hi^e brought in witnesses, to testify to them. .

1 weU lenosr that the &cfc irti wjpoh- my brotheit stteei^, is not well authenticated. We '
da«Al:kn<lw., even^ wh* wtela the aoeouttt;HManterB think Samuel, or some one, wrote';
it|,¥Qt WO; have nofc the pariliiw pAw£

73 Discusc^ioy qe spiitrruAusii bktwerk

«

Mj brother has proceeded to cast, reflectioqa upon the chanicter of medioniB. •
all mediums are honest, I do not believe. It would be strange if all were honest
among so many thousands. There was dishonesty in olden times. There was a Fetor
to deny, and a Judas to betray. He has spqkcn of the character of these me^
uns. Friends, I might read you, here, a chapter of clerical delinquencies, that would
make your ears tingle and your cheeks mantle with shame — and not a thousand mflei
fi:Qm Boston, either. But does this discr^it the pure and holy religion which Jesue
Christ taught, and which I love ? Not in the least. Is not the testimony of ihe wii*
nesses I have named, good. If we pass to their character, it is equally good with tliat
of the witnesses of the wonders of olden time. I am willing to receive the testimony of
those witnesses. If I open the Qible and read, I find that Moses saw an angel. And
yet, the Bible tells us that Moses committed murder. He saw an Egyptian striking' 4-
Hebrew; and, looking around him to see that there was no one in sight, he ^ew lihe
Eg}'ptian, and hid him in the sand. I believe him notwithstanding that he comipitted
murder. Abraham saw three spirits. He liiled up his eyes, and three men stood be-
fore him — they are sulerward called ministering spirits. Yet, did he not commit in-
cest, by marrying his sister ? Did he. not turn his own son, and that son's mother, into
the wilderness, to perish ? And yet I believe his testimony ; for I can see no motive
for his testifying dishonestly. The gentleman says these witnesses must be dishonest.
Where is the motive ? If he had brought in a negative argument, and shown the- mo-
tive which would induce it, his assumptions and assertions might have some weight. I-
dixn told I must believe Jacob, when he says that he saw a ladder reaching' from earth tO'
heaven, and angels ascending and descending, upon it ; and again, when he declaim
that he wrestled with an angel, all night, and had his thigh put out of joint And yet>
did not Jacob rob his own brodier of his birthright? When Esau was* faint with
hunger, Jacob offered him a mess of pottage, and demanded^ as the price, the birth-
right of his starving brother. In this way, by this mean act, ho robbed him of lus
inheritance. Surely, if a Spiritualist in this community thus defrauded his brother, I
would never quote his testimony, to support Spiritualism. Other Bible personages
give their testimony. David gives his; yet David committed murder and adultery,
in the case of Uriah the Hittitc. Solomon gives his ; yet Solomon was the great-
est Mormon the world ever knew, and the greatest idiot for it. Paul ghre^'
in his testimony; yet was not Paul accessory to murder, in the case of Stephen^
— did he not consent to his death, and hold his clothes? Peter while asleep, in a
trance, saw a spirit; yet did not Peter perjure his own soul, before God and heaven,
in denying his Lord and Master, and swearing to the denial ? I do not introduce this^
here, to impeach their testimony. This was away back in the days of ignorance and ■
darkness. I believe their testimony ; yet what I have stated in reg^d to the private
character of these men is to be found in the Bible. Now, my friend, I ask you, is not
the testimony. of the witnesses whom I have introduced, as good? yea, better ?-^fiMr
they live, and may be interrogated, and you cannot tlirow so much doubt around it as
around that of witnesses living thousands of years aga I have witnessed these facts, mj^
self, and have ^ven my testimony. And now, will my brother not show some modve that
will induce so many thus to offer their testimony, where we know it will be protested ^
agunst I, as a lecturer, may be induced to obtahi this painting in some dishonest way.

But what wUl induce this man whose letter I have read, Mr. , of New York, thus to

impose upon his own companion ? He must have been a party to the fraud. It was the '
painting of a little child. In my own case I did not mention to Mr. Bodgers, as I remem-
ber, that I had a sister in the spirit-world. I told hun I coold not xeast oonvietion, if he

LEO < MILLER AKD ?ROF. GBIUCKS* 78l

irould fdkkt a portrait of mj mother. My moiher had been in the spirit-world one jear,
my niter foar years. It was just as unexpected as if some one should come out oi that
room there, and hand me a likeness of my mother. He says somebody told him that
somebody said that two pictures by this Mr. Bodgers look much alike. He knows that
lliere is a resemblance in the works of every artist I have seen scores of his paint-
ingi, aad know there is as much likeness as is usually visible in the works of the same
artist, and no more. Gro to my brother, in Mt. Morris, New York. He will tell yon it
18 a likeness of our sister. He is a member of the Baptist Church in that place. He
will give you the testimony of many in that town, to avouch for the correctness of ihe
portrait; Now, because my sister's face and mine wear a family likeness, and are ai
nearly the same complexion, and we have similar features, my friend would tell us thai
tike resemblance indicates that the portrait was gathered fW>m my face. His argument
sliows a weak cause — weak indeed. I would have had my brother meet more of these
fiicfes. He has had my sympathy and pty ; and I have ]uty for him still, stra^ling, as
be is nnder the burden of opposition to the truth, and when he shall take up the next
question to be discussed it will be harder still. I say he cannot meet these facts, to the
sadsftotion of the public. And if his friends are not here, he cannot charge it upon
me : it 18 because he has not faithfiilly aided them out of this inextricable difficulty.
Tbey have, one by one, left ; because he cannot account for these ^ts which I have
prwented.

The entire Christian world believe that we are surrounded by sjnritual beings ; and
the Christian Church recognize, and have ever heartily realized, the fact that our.
B{nrit friends are not far away. I well remember, in former days, while young, — or be-
fore the days of Spiritualism, — particularly on funeral occasions, our minister would say
to the bereaved mourners, — " Oh, cheer up ; your dear one, your mother, brother, or
sister, is not dead, but the spirit ha8 only taken its flight into another stat^, and will
unquestionably become your guardian angel — your ministering spirit** Why have
they abandoned this position which they formerly assumed ?

In regard to the miracle, I must give the gentleman credit for having been exceed-
ingly cunning. He put a good joke on me — th^e is no doubt of it I was pleased to
see it I am glad that he begins to appreciate fun, and that he has dropped a little of
that solemn style of dealing. He be^ns to appreciate, really, the dignity of his sutiject,
and adopts the style that is adapted to it, and well worthy of it Now, allow me a rfr*
mark. I love a joke, myself, and I don't lose an opportunity to make one ; though I
k^p back, in this discussion, a great many, and have not made my remarks nearly as
amusing as I otherwise should. The gentleman complained, and felt badly, about it; and
I have, therefore, kept a great deal of it out Now, seriously, in regard to those miracles,
the real question was, whether these fjiings were done by a law of nature or noL
He says I have ridiculed the idea of a stone being moved, and, therefore, ridiculed my
own fact Let me say, candidly, that if these miracles recorded in the Bible are to be
explsdned only by a law of nature, I should ridicule them in a moment If the rolling
ot the stone, if the rainng of Christ, of Lazarus, were not miracles ; if they are to be
explained by a law of nature ; just as these phenomena, dien, indeed, are they moeit
ridiculous. When Christians speak of a man being an infidel, we mean a man who ex-
plains the miracles oif iHie Bible as being produced by a law of nature. And aU. the^
^trine of the modern. Spiri^alists.is infidelity. It is mfidelity with a ghost in it 77 jiK^
leave die ghost out, and it is mere stark atheisoL

t4i DISOVSnOK' of SPIRltUAl^ISM BETWEEN

Lot US assume, now, that Spiritualism is true. There is a rule of argumeut kiunn%
nnlDiig logicians, as the reductio ad absurdunL Now, suppose that Spiritualism is tmey^f
tjialiwhen anybody dies, he has the power of ooming back and moring tables,-^! asfe
tlieoi, why does not the slave mother, when she dies, as- that slave mother did in Ohii^.
who tried to kill — and, I believe, did kill — her child^ and as in. many cases whe»0:
HMgr perish in the attempt to gain their liberty, — why don't they return and.hMBt,tiie'
who hold their children in slavery? Why, what a ^pping would thwe be, if;
slaves could come, as he says they could, — * all around their homes^ their mothen^.
and ohildren, and masters 1 Would they not do thb if they could ? Is not the fiust'thslr
l&ajdo not, sufficient to show there is not the slightest probability they can do it ? Bat^^
though! one and another might not get the conditions right, some of them surely writuldA-

Jkgain, still assuming the truth of Spiritualism — what a condition one is in f If yoa*
aire a little off your guard,, the air is full of spirits, ready to pounce upon your mind* ▲
man stands here, sound and sane, and in a moment he is a little sleepy, or somethings
aoDd the mind is pushed from its throne, and it is not your own. It is a heavy crime io-
oany a man from the countiy, but here they kidnap a man, before he knows it, aB4
oairy him where they wilL And of the spirits, too, the meanest, lowest, most villaaoaa
EMOab that ever lefl the worid, are, according to their own acknowledgment, the moili
likely to pounce upon you. Nobody is sa&. And then the gentleman talks about tile
probability of the thing. If a man is in jail, you get a writ of habeastorpus. But wiieiii
a spirit carries a fellow off, to take him into mischief, you can't have a kabea$ co9jnu.^^
yoKihave got to have a habeas spiritus^ to fetch him.

Mb. Miller. — That's true.

Mb. Grimes. — Do you hear that ? They can seize upon you, and you are newer ^
aitfb«--'if this doctrine is true. Surely, we should pray God to protect us i^natithesk
Bvl| according to his doctrine, they are around like mosquitos, and yon never lo^Mi-
when they will bite, or where. Again, who would date to CGounit a crime ? -^ the spirila^
are there. A police officer is there, and he will tell, — he will tell the chief of pdice.
There could be no treason — Washington, MaricU) Putnam, Warren, are all here to
guard their country. Nobody could steal; nobody- could commit a crime, —it wo^ld
be told of at once — the spirits would rap and rap and write, and tell it all. And ^etfe-
uiese mediums do things as bad as others — almost as bad as others.

• Mb. Miller.— -They dont hav« a thousand -wives, or perjure their souls, weoaaA'

lb. Grimes. — I am very glad to hear what th^ d<m*t, for we all know what ther :

But I wish to show you, if you carry, your doctrine out, where it leads yon. A^
stone it to be true, and how could science move ? The genljleman says the Atlftntjo
tefaoraph gave no more than one message. Why not ? It was broken, then. VTherf)
wafi the spirit of Franklin, when that wire was severed 2 Why did not the ^itit of
thai great philosopher tell where it was broken. FranlQin has come and rapped, luod.
td^ .alt sorts of things, — but of that telegraph, not a word. Who believes it ? Ofi^
tfiat' doctrine out, and see where you arrive. Lord Bacon, the gieat philosopher, ins^SreJi
Jnc^ Edmonds,. — he and Swedenboig. l9bw, Swedenborg was ofie of the gr<^|test
niqii (liat ever lived. Bis tnrain may have been, a little hui^ by disease ; but^ Q0twitlv>
•danding that, no man ever surpassed hun in learning. No more extraordinary maa
ererfived. He is inspiring Edmonds, — he and Lord BaponI Kow^ wfa|f dp^ 09^.

££<>• MALM A^D PBOl*. CTBDIBS; 7S'

Lord Bacon, who so much loved improrements in wience, communicate a few scientific
diflooveries ? It was said — I don't know hew trae it was—: thai wfato Edmonds made
kit judicial decisions, he consulted Lord Bacon. I do noibelieTO it; bot^ certatnlir, thatf
•toi7 has gone the rounds, and, certainly, Judge Edmonds would have been coniiitent'
bad he acted as the story hat it. If I were a ^uiitoaiist, and befieved I could obtain
the q>inion of Loi-d Baeon, upon a point of law,, with whioh I had to deal, I should da w^
I dcm't speak disrespectfully of him if he did.

Mb. MiLLEB. — He denies it

Mr: GfttMBs. — It lii w^ll if he did; for that great. pihilaBopher was a great viDauDi.
Fope deseribet him as'

Now, why do not he and Swedenboig, tell us something new about science, if they
cah? We are told that a new kind of gas has been discovered by the .Spiritualists,
which can be made for twelve and a half cents |t thousand feet A friend of mine came
to me, and said, — ^* Grimes, you are a kind of scientific expert, and know several things.
Ckxne and find out about this." I found it a humbug. I understand they are getting out
a' patent, in England, with a view to try to sell it And I ascertained that it is a perfect
Ihimbug. And yet, if it is true that these spirits can come, it is perfectly reasonable and
Batural to suppose that they can tell these things. Professor Hare, who, before he was a
flt|nritualist, was a scientific man, and improved the blow-jnpe, and knew about oxygen,
and hydrogen, and cveiy kind of gas, might, surely, have had the revelation made to hiou
Why does not ^e spirit of Herschel tell astronomers the secrets of the ririea ? The pkuiet
Uraiius was dkcovered hf him, while he waa on this earth; why didnt he tell hiv
son that there was another planet beyond- that ? He oould have done it The law of
nature made the perturbation, which directed to the new planet the eye of its discoveiw.-
The spkit of the father was around his son ; yet what said it ? it waked all this time, till
the Fox girls ahd Davenport boys were honored with what these great philosojphevs
could not have. Isn't that likely ? Isn't that reasonable ? Isn't that beautiful? Isn't
t^t contemptible ? Isn't that ridiculous ? — If it is not, my brains, surely, are deficient
j|%e cholera, — what is its cause V The potato rot, that did so much terrible mischief in
Ireland, and caused the starvation of so numy persons^ — what is the cause of it ? Whero
are the spirits of Hunter, Bush, and all the great physicians ? They surely knew something*
Ihey have progressed — lor, according to your story, progression is still gqing on, thero
— they have nothing else to do but to progress. The races of men— -^ whence sprang,
the negroes ? — whence the Australians ? Why has not Gliddon, who recently^died, -—
wliy has not the great Darwin, who wrote so well about the Pacific Islands, in-*
^rcd his son, who has just written a half-Spiritualistiq bode? — why, when philoso>*
phers are so puzaled about races, do we get no light from this source ? Andrew Jackson
Cavis, the great sqcr, in Poughkeepsic, was inspired, and made to pour forth an over^
whelming flood of nonsense — and not on§ new idea. Tell me, my Spiritualist friend^ ona
new idea in science revealed by your spirits. Tell meone crime detected and exposed,,
amid all those patriotic, moral, and religious spbits, leddng on, and seeing these crime9|.
— fuftl of benevolence, yet communicatii^ only such silly stuff and nonsense? Who
doubts the existence df the sua? Who doubts thQ ^atenee of tho satellites of
Jupiter ? And yet, they tell us they have sych an amount of evidence. Here are the
best, the very ablest men we have, the very professors of fifarvard College, at whpin
yba' sneer so much, i^, ni\&r eocAxidtdtig it widf ail theh: i^ffity, sblemidf tell you H i^
loHtfemptfhIeiind ridictilaus.

76- DIS0U6SIOK OF SFIBITU^IilSX BBTWSBK

f ....

MR. SCLliBR.

Will mj brotlier allow me to ask bim a nngle qneitioQ ? Why it is that when a pro-'
&f0or is teaching in college, and gives the student a proUem in Euclid, he does not Int
down and work it out himself ?

Mb. Gbimes. — No: the student would ask that, himself. It would be a yerybe*'
nevoierUact, if they did, espiedaUy if die student who received the assistance, was k
blunderhead.

Mr. Miller. — I asked a mere question.

Mb. Grimes. — It seema to me a very trifling question, and does not belong to me.

Mr. Miller. — I asked a question, if I had a child ten years old, who could not
answer which, I would send him to bed supperless f and my brother doesn't answer it,
because he knows it would overthrow all he has said. Every child, and every hod-car-
rier, ought to know that the professor does not solve the problem, for the reason that he
wants the student to develop his own intellectual powers. Why do not the spirits come
and talk for you ? Because if they did? you would never learn to talk yourself

And I will submit it to this audience, if my brother has not waited till the last twenty
minutes of the last evening of the discus»on upon this question, to put important ques-
tions. 'J[ feel prepared to answer them. Will my brother give me time to answei
tbem?

Ma. Grimes. — If my brother will go on for an hour or two, I will not make any
ol^ections.

Mr. Miller.-— I will answer thatquesticm which my brother does not want an*
swered — why he &iled to ask these important questions until the last moment ? Now,
if the audience b willing that I should proceed, or if it can be deferred till to-morrow
night —

Mb. Grimes. — I have no objection. If the gentleman answers, I must have a
speech) also.

Mr. Miller. — I have my five minutes; and these questions shall be answered.
Let me say to you, friends, I am thankful, then,, that we are not to sit like young birds,
with our mouths open to receive every thing as infallible. I hope I am thankful that
we are obliged to dig for these truths, and in that way unfold, more or less, the spiritual
and intellectual faculties of our being. Exercise and labor develop the muscles of the
arm and body. Should I take away your thinking, should I take away the necessity
of every mental effort of yours, how soon would your minds become debilitated and
enfeebled. I do not want the spirit-world to come and take away 6ur labor. Give us
a field where we can labor, and develop our intellectual muscles, and by and by the
spirits fM instruct us, but as our professors instruct the young — " Here, young man, is
a probtem, work it out, and your mind will become strengthened.** The next problem
the pupH takes hold of, he solves more readily, because the effort upon the first has
strengfihened his fitcnlties to grapple with the second. And yet, the spirits do come as
teachers to aid us. I lately talked with a gentieman who has made several inventions in
macluneiy, and that gentleman told me that at night, while he was sleeping, a piece of
machinery has beeii represented in a vision, befiire his mind, — that he has risen finom
his bed and made a draft of the machinery shown to him by a spirit

Mr. Grimes. — Why did the professor do that?

Mr. Milleb. — Because he saw it was important that it should be done. It was
giving the pupil one stepfmig-ftone, that he might go to another. Isay tomy child,that|«

LXO ini.LKB AND PROF. aRIMSS. 77

if he is not capable of grappling with this mathematical problem, I will gire him a ftart
and assist him, and he will be made stronger for the next by the exercise of dealing
with this. Can my brother tell how much it is that spirits have aided the world in nri»Vi*ig
their inventions and discoveries ? Can he say that the immiHtal Franklin did not hover
ver Morse, while making his inquiries as to the laws of electricity and its phenomena?
But does my brother intend to offer aik Bi|;^mient, herei;tha$ maa'is abandoned to him*
self? Let me ask, why does not God do these things ? &ave you not had a great
revival, here, in which God was at wofk ? Why does he not remove evil from yonr
community ?
I am glad the field is open ; I am glad we at last have iooietliing we can meet

The gentleman can talk my five minutes ; I do not wish to talk any more, to-night.

Mb. Miller. — I will not do so. Noir can the gentleman throw dust in the eyes of
the audience by intimating that there is no reply needed.

Afier a word or two of good-humored conversation between the speakers,

Mr. Grimes selected from the audience, as the committee to investigate, as proposed
by Mr. ^filler, the power of a medium, under sjnritual infbaenoe, to read the aamer
written on slips of paper enclosed in eavebpes, — Messrs. StAMcrxL B. Bvobrx, C. D.
Sjeixogo, and J. W. James. An appointment far the meeting of the committee on
tike following rooming, was made, and the andience was thea dismissed.

FIFTH EVENING.

FRIDAY, MARCH 9tb.

QU.BSTIOX FOB DISCITttXOir.

Called for the Report of the committee appofated, upon tlie p ret kw i eveniiig;
explained the circumstances under which the offer was made.

This morning (ho said), I wrote on the twenty pieces of paper, folded t^sm op in iSbm
manner described, gave it to the coounittee, and now, sir, I call finr their Report.

Saxukl C. Bugbeb, Esq., the chairman of the oommittee, came firward and
ssBtcd his Report, which was read by Mb. Gboces, as ibUoiwB : —

RXPOBT Of COBflflTTXB 0!f TKT IirnDBTIGATIOH.

** Th« committee wlceted bet ««reiiliiff by Pioftjetor Qrlmw to wntliilM Om lupat^wil, in p y oseatyMfc-
iraier, to hftfe nemee, aeeiudy placed in enirelopee, iwd by the iplrlt* throogh tbo BedhnuUp of Mn« OosA
bef leafe to wfoti : —

"We called on Hn. Conn, and after taking oor Mats at the table, placed belbte ber ttmity oavriopes wllk

tipenty namei eneloeedf prepared, In every respect, by Profeeeor Qrlmen according to detaile m ggnt e d \ff Ifr.

MWer. Hn. Coan, after Tiewing the eoTelopes, at once nid the coald not read the names, as it tn» entivdj oal

of ber line, that we might as well call on a blacksmith to make a watch; and declined to make the aMeapi:

after some fhrtber time and discussion, howcTer, she took up each enTelope separately, and calling upon ttw

spirits, requested them to read the enclosed names ; but she was unable to obtain a single re q wn ie . This was !••

peated, but again without success. We must theielbre report that Mrs. Coan fldled entirriy to prodoea ttw

wa nl JBs t a t i w is and results p r o p osed by Mr. Miller.

**8ifned, i

*«B. 0. BBGBBB,

**0. D. KXLLOOe,

"J. W. JAMBB.**

Mb. Miller. — I would like to ask if the committee are willing to milte any fnrtlMr
report, or to be interrogated.

Mb. Buobee. — I hare no objection.

Mb. Miller. — Do yon consider that in that Report the real objection has bena
clearly and definitely stated, — why the medium did not succeed in getting comnmni*
cations?

Mb. Buobee. — She stated it was out of her line of bnnness^ — she nerer did aay tluig
of the kind.

Mb. Milleb. — Do you think, my friend, that is a sufficient explanatioii ftr iSm
audience ? ^

Mb. Buobee. — I think it if.

Mb. Milleb. — That she never answered ?

TMomnuhEM .uiBrPBar. cnnm. * W

-Mb. Bt70BlDB.<^]>idift attwer any bf Ibem-^nid that dw ocwiMfit — >der1i»<d:liy'
iig, im ike fint-i^ace.

Mr. 'Milleb. — Dtd you get any fhrther communicatioiui ?

Mb. Bugbbb. — ildidoiot

Mb. Miller. — Did any member of the committee firom your side ?

Mr. Grimks. — I beg pardon, Mr. Chairman ; 'I thiiik 'thb koat ti order. Mr.
Miller suggested that a certain committee be appointed, and that an experiment should
IM tried. it« was tried, atfd 1^ erperhneiit'fii^ed. 'Now,-the9e getrtlemen, I nadenHarid,
did something for their own amusement, Bud eometfiing took'plaoe. I nsderstaild: ttei
with what took place among these gentlemen without my knowledge or consent, I
Maipe-iiothing to do ;* this audience has notbiiig to do 'Wtth it.

Mb. Miixeb. — I would now call upon our committee^ — upon Dr. Child, who fis
t)ie chairman to mako his Report

Mr. Grimes. — No ; you Cannot I should like to know whether that is in order.
Sirfore that committee \^ called upon, I have a word to say. I will not interrupt if yon
are speaking.

Mr. Miller. — I will say, it was agreed upon, this momiog, that I was to have a
committee ; and does ipy brother now intend to muzsle that committee, and withhold
their report ? Why was that committee selected ? ; I call upon Dr. Child,. the chai]>-
man of that committee to. make his report

Mr. Grimes.-^ Last evening, my-^erid, there was a certain proposition madd^-*-

Mr. Miller. — I would ask if I am in order. {^To Mr. Bugbee,"] Did the commit-
tee, on your lade, open the envelopes, to see whether thefo were any names in them,
whatever ?

Mr. Bugbeb. — They did not

Mr. Miller. — Failure I How do you know there were any names there ? Yon
have reported that there were names in there, and yet you don't know whether them
were any there, or not

Mr. Grimes. — I beg leave. — The gentleman is very sharp indeed. But Ikt us have
a &ir understanding of this matter. Any taking advantage, any kind of trickery or
deception, in a matter like this, would be too bad. It would be contemptible. Surely,
sorely, no one would be guilty of it. Now, an objection has j ust been started. Let us look
at this, a moment What was the original proposition ? It was this, and the audience
remember that last night I accepted it. Mr. Miller, my friend and my opponent, here,
with, I really thought, a great deal of manliness, — it indicated a degree of honesty that
delighted me — it ^owed a confidence in: his cause, woKhy of him, -^ when he saw me
80 sceptical, since I doubted that these things could bo really done, and intimated that
when they were done, there was always some weakness, — said that the expeii-
Bient was not &irly tried. — " Now," said he, ** is there not anybody in the audienoe,
whom you can trust ? " Dr. Crardner suggested, — and I admired his sagacity, — :ih«t
among the three I must not be one, — I must not be there, --^ my son must not be there.
I did not tkm see why that gentleman, my son,, was excluded ; but I sec, now, and: at
ttNoe other time I will, give you the reason. But Dr. Gardner did see fit to leave
one ^iit Yet^ thofte w«r &n investigation, going on, in which I was deeply intereated*

80 Disouasioir of spiRiruAuax betweek

Bn^ three other persoot mnst be selected, and I had to take them immediately out of
the audience. I saw one gentleman whom I knew, and another, and I was tryk^ t»'
think of a third, when some one wa6 named in the galleiy. It was some one whom I
knew, and I said, Very well. They went Mr. Miller said there were to be three
names put in envelopes. Very welL Then I was told to write twenty names ; and /
said, twenty names.

Mr. MihLim. — I did not say three.

[Some little controversy ensued as to the details of Mr. Miller's proposition, upcii
this point. See report of the previous evening's discusnon, page 60.]

Mr. Grimes continued. Now, after that oommittee was af^inted, I prepared
these envelopes. The proposition was, that I might write on paper, and fold it, as care-
ftdly as I pleased, in these envelopes so that no human being but myself should know
what was in there, seal it up, and take it to a person, or send it to a person, whom X
should name, who should look it over and write a name on the outside, and open it tg
see if it is right. The committee, therefore, had no right to open it, until the ^^iiik
had told what name was in there. Then, and not before, had they a right to open it.
And when the medium said she would not try it, it was out of her line, it seems to me
they had no more to do but to turn around again, and come home. And then, when
diciy proceeded, afterward, to "Is it this" — and "this," — and "this," — and "Ais,*
they got no response whatever, — ^ I ask, whether there was any thing in there, or not,
what was there to find out by opening the letter ? Furthermore, that committee is still
in existence. That committee has still the twenty envelopes. And if you want them
opened, you can have it, now.

Mr. Muxer. — I would ask my brother what evidence he ^an give us that they have
the same envelopes. Remember I had a committee on my side. I had a committee^
there, in the hall, to see that all was right. It was expected, on the part of your commit-
tee, that they should open the envelopes to see whether or not there were names in
tliem, — that they should be opened there, in the presence of my committee. The
gentleman wys, if there were any names given, by the medium, the envelopes were to
be opened. Of course, if there were no names in the envelope, there could be no name
given, and the gentleman had a sure thing of it If he had felt dit^Kxsed to leave names
out, then would he certainly have, a victor}\ This is plain to every one here. Ha
knew, beforehand, that if he did not put a name in, there would be no opening of the
envelopes. And now, since the envelopes were not opened there, in the presence of
the committee, what evidence has he, to show, beyond taking human testimony, that he
has the same envelopes ? And what evidence have you, to show that there was a single
name in them, except your own word for it ?

Mr. Qrimes. — The gentleman says he had a committee of three. This audienoe
may wonder where that committee came from ; for when the proposition was made, last
night, that a committee of three should go to the medium, nothing was said about any
committee of his. But this morning, when the committee were proceeding to their
doty, they were infoimed by Mr. Miller that he was not satisfied yet. He had had
every thing his own way ; I had submitted to every thing he said, to all his conditiong.
But ^Here," said he, " is a committee, three of Grimes' friends: I want three Spirit*
nalists." It was reported to me; and some of my friends said, — "It ia unfair; don^
have Dr. Gardner there." Said I, — "Let him have every thing he asks; sahnit to

ttO MILLEB ANO PROF. OBIKES. 81

etarjr thing; afid if you get cheated, it is your ftult. Go and transact the affair just
aMording to the letter of his statement ; that is all ; do no more, no less."" Now, I want
to a^k my fiiend a question. He said, in the course of his remarks, just now, that he
had a committee there, to see that things were propedy done. When the lady declined,
did not his committee ask to have the envelopes opened ?

'Mb. Miller. — I admit, friends, I did not state, last evening, all the conditiooa
of that investigation. The principal thing that my friend required was the privilege of
MWling up a name, so that by ordinary means it could not be barc^en without his knowl-
edlga. I consented to that part of it ; but I had not dme, neither did I consider it the
place, to state all the conditions. So &r as that was concerned, which was the essential
pQgnt, it mqst be settled here. But, as gentlemen dealing with gentlemen, widi a name,
and a desire fer tnith, all these collateral conditions, it seems to me it must be plain to
every one, nraart be had, and I must not allow him to select three gentlemen, and have
them bring in their Beport, without having a committee to see that the investigation was
properly conducted.

Mr. Grimes. — I didn't object to that. Why did not your committee ogen the en*
vekpa?

Mr. Miller. — Our committee had nodiing fhrther to do than to see what your
committee did. My committee was not after the envelopes. They were in the hands
of .your committee, and I expressly requested of your committee that they should open
those envelopes there, in the presence of my comnuttce, to see if there were names ;
and then I intended, if you were willing, to ask who the in^viduals were, where, and
under what circumstances, you were acquainted with them. Our committee was there,
perhaps, in part, to protect the lady should there be insult offered. For I offered the
gentleman, last night, tiie opportunity of selecting any three men in this audience. My
committee was there to see that courtesy and candor were manifested, — that the enveir
opes were opened in their presence. Now, I say the gendeman has not given us one
particle of evidence that his committee have the same envelopes that they had before, or
that they had there, in the presence of &e lady. And further, what ei4dence have yoa
that any names, whatever, were in there ?

Mr. Grimes. — My friend has confidence in human testimony.

Mr. Miller. — Yes, sir ; but when you repudiate it —

Mr. Grimes. — My friend has confidence in human testimony. But enough.
There are the envelopes, in the hands of the man to whom I gave them ; and I have
not seen them since I saw him hold them up in his hand, just now. Who are the gen-
tlemen of this committee ? One is Mr. Kellogg, a merchant well known in this city.
I was but little acquunted with him ; but any one acquainted in Troy, who knows IJs
&mily, and his &ther, who was the intimate fiiend of Fillmore, knows that Mr. Kellogg
is one of the best men in Troy. He is the man to protect against whose assaults they
have had a committee. . Another is Mr. James, a gentleman known to every man in
this city who knows any thing of business and of integrity. That is the committee
that is not to be believed, not to be trusted, at all 1 And all the stories my fiiend re-
peats are to be swallowed down at a gulp 1 Another is a gentleman, an intimate friend
of mme, with whom I board ; and therefore I will not speak of him more particularly ;
but his name is written on many a qilendid palace, in this vicinity, raised by his genius.
Tbeae are the men agdnst whose insuks you are obliged to have three persons to pro-
tect the medium, and to see that they were, candid met ! And here they are : Ihey

6

82 DisGuasjoif OF srimruALii^. Bi^l^wxEir

Imye tbp enrelopea in their po^dtnon ; I. have not leen tiiem. — >vxd. ifiio, iq JSbltiraa'^r-
nane, thougfai d gufqpding i^gHiMt a. triek ? Eor.my ftart, Lam salasSeii ;, if tih« ffffmO^.
vff^ wants, ap^. thing more, — I api satisfiecL

lA. IMTT.T.TIP

I wdd]4 81^ tQ' m)^ bro^iQT, I mol his .committde, this su^nii^ and. aA.i^ ^koo^'l
iaw iotegritys honeBtjry and iai^icmee^, in . Uie^r face?. I did n^t.kpow. ihe|[eatleiaea.W^«.
fQT» ; I did n^ kpow.wiKWI yoH . wfwM sel^tt I did mot; care, partiealarly, whont yoRy
shocdd. select, if yon would select- candid, Jboaest men. Yet^ this, was not to bo 9Wfpomib^
in this matter, if we proceed to. rejSect upon it, under all these oooditions. Lcastn^-oeif . ;
flections upon your coounittee. Should one of your/caounittee:i)iefi staSiMl up and. aig^ •
tl^ he had the same envelopes he had there, I am willii^ to receive thai testitpflwyy.
Xet, the gentlevian has ibroed it upon us, when h^ might havo had them opened thsr^v:

Mr: Grimes. — Why did not your committee aek it there ? ' " ' ^

Mb. Miller. — It was not their duty. I am willing to drop the matter here, as fkr '
as ^hoso envelopes are concerned; I would have been glad if this committee had open^
them at the time, which would bring the matter more fully before the public Tbeit'
Bepqort: would Beem to imply that Mrst Coan never reads namas in any way. 1; wevtd
can upon Dr, Cluldfor his Report*

Mb. Bitgbbb. — I would ask Dr^ Child if the Beportof the cooamittee is not coereat.

Mr- MU'^.er. — I cannot see wherein any thing of that kind is in order. Let hko.
make his Beport : you can judge. You may have reported a part of the truth. So.fwT AA
yoi^ h^ve reported, it may be ajl true.

Mr. Grucbs. — I would suggest that Dr. Child can answer? the question, hinwett .

Mr. Miller. — Will Dr. Child be kind enough to crane forward ?

Db,. CaiM>-<-^ Mr. President : I shall be very happy to answer Mr. Bugbee's questioiip.
if he will answer the siujilar . question, which I will put to him. I will answer his qnestiopn : .
Hb Beport, so far as it goes, is correct ; but it does not tell half the story.

Mr. Bugbee. — I tell the story so far as relates to all that we were apppdnted faff

Mb. Child. — It does not give a full statement of what took place in the^ interview
the committee had with Mrs. Coan, this afternoon.

But, Mr. Fresidsnt, I will read: —

[Beport of Mr. Miixbr's Committee.]

** At ha]f-p«Bt two o'clock this p.ic., a oommittoe of six gentleineQ met at ttao noiai«f ISm, hM^\ulOmm%
tat the purpoM ctf getting answers to writing contained tn twenty sealed envelopes, according to purport. Hat ■
eommlttee consisted of G. D. Kellogg, John W. James, and S. C. Bugbee, chosen by B&. Grimes — and John
W. Wathcxbee, Daidrt iBirar, and A. B. Child, chosen by Mr. Miller. When the oliijeot of the moeliilg-iiMi
■tated toMrs. CkNMi, sheinunecUately said that answess to sealed letters were not given throm^ her intdl«| .
powers ; that fhe did not understand from Mr. Miller, when she made the appolnranent to sit ft>r this ooibbi|I^
tee, that such manifestations were expected, but expected stich manifestations of spirits would bo made, and .
unAj such would bo expected, as had been before made through her medlnmship ; that she had no erfdeaoe cf
possessing tha^ jpaenlifr Phsss of mediamshlp throogU wideh .spirits could answer sealed letters. Bhs aten
> stated that iM^'lto I^Ppwo that the ol^ect of tl^e. oomipitl»» m to get answers to sealed iettsis, shedmikk
haye positlTely declined meeting it for that purpose. Mrs.. Coan inyited the committee to write one or mora
Bames of fthfelr dseeased friends, seerftfy, on separate pletes of paper, and fold dosrly so that it would ba lm«
possible for aiqr psssan to rssd the nana whaatiMiMpsr wia folded, and hsr hand woald ba uofftd and «iito i'
.tha nama ooDftalnad in *h*> foidrxl naoar.

lito uftzvTt Ami PBdk'. Gfttinfs. 83

" Aitqr mam lUglit degmatng, itm whrte.Bftmmlttti emumxUA to wltniW utoll a^fht b> glf%a In thivwaj.

"^CWmity-fiT8 pieoes of paper were piifatel/ mitten upon by the ooouBlttee) ekweltj folded, and hid mpon}
tte teible beftne the medlom, under the direct Inapectlon of evefy BMmber of the oomsittee. Mn. Ooaa tfaea
aAad if any ij^t waa pNMnt whoeer oaJoM waa written on any of thoiie p&eoee of paper ; and if lo,. requested
Ilia spirit to write the name through her hand, and theneeleet the paper on whicli-waa written ttiia efeme name.
Her hand was then sdaed, appaurently by seme iuTisible power, and nqiidly wrote, wrong side up : " IvriU do
mH Ipam, te aid yom, -^J a na i km Ir—i— ." nMM]fra.i>wt0^tedliirilni9tr •* oite of th* ptrtteTorpa)^
wUeh was fidded up, andaaid, Is this the name ? The zaps casie under the table in anawer, •-^■■iaide xap,
wtieh maini ite. TOen she touched another and another, in the same way, until three n^ Indlfcaiedb thstt tha •
naa name that had been written through her haiid,was In that piece of paper. Diis, she handed to Mr.
Jamea, and in the presepoe of all theeommittee he unlbbted it and on it was wi^tten,-" Jonathan Law.". Mr.
JaBBS'add-tfcs* be wrote tUs'nadw fahnidf;'but asked^ Why Is not 1,010 written in fiiU, instead'of only the let-
ter J^aftarJaMftten f Kta.Coa&stfdtlMt so ivaa tha nataw fa written it wrisUtertliircdtrBctj'sddtt^^
aoald not tell wity the two lest fattens, ow, ware omitted.

'^ Again, Mrs. Caen's hand was moved, and wrote—'* Marf CbfliiM." And after tha ma|e dppbner ^ b»>
tea, another pface of folded paper waa-sel^eted oA Which the r^M said was written the name, Mary Collins.
Thfa folded paper was handed to, and opened by, Mr. C. D. Kellogc, and Maxy Collins was wrlttan in the foUfad
papif. ISia qoestian was then adDBd, wln> wrote thfa name ! No one answered; no one appeared to know.
Ml. Bligbeaiamacked that tfaswxltliv looked like that of M^. KeOag^; iMiAnMr. Kellogg looked ag^ at it
and then he NOMaKbared that ha had wrifettfa it; and said that ha wrete it, aa4 iddad it ao tlM Btf otfa
eoidd nad it without unfolding It.

'* These two names that were answered, were written, one by each f f two members of the eommittee who do
not belfaae in Bpiritnalisai, and tb^y ssid timt tb^y ooold not see, or nadMand; how it waa doii. Thoy
kMifr na law by lAfclifbase names oouUL bsuthqa read.

"WaaUm that thfa fa woorreetand true report of tha maaiftsfatiMfa' wa ^tnessed ini the preseaoeof

Mci. Coan, thfaalteanoaau

"jyMfaf,JMfaKA9»188B. .

•* J. W. WETEOERBSE,

* ''DANJKLFAUIAB,

"A. B. CHILD."

I wish to ask Mr. Bugbee if he could subgcribe to thia.
Mb. Bugbbe. — No, sir ; I cannot

I will give my reasons. In the first place, he has not gone quite far enough. The
ballot with ** Mary Collins" on it was handed tb me, and I re&d if , and passed it to Mr.
K. Perhaps that » an error of Mr. Cluldfs. And 'after Mr* JonatJurb Low wag' eallad,
Mr. James sdd thait was an old servant of the family, who died forty yeamagd ^ Now^
said Mrs. Coan, " Mr. James, would you pot like to have some test ? " " Why, y^s,"
saidhe; "whatshallldo?" "Whyj^saidshe, "wheipfewashebom?*' *'an Boston.*'
"But you must not tell me that he was bors in Boston: I want <^ spirits- to iell me
that" '^ Why," said Mr. James, '^what questions can I ask? I will ask if he was a
fiiend, and the name of a person at whose death-bed he was present " You must write,"
said Mrs. Coaa, '^tfaenasMNi'or s^fv^eiH^ ptersons, and place your pencil successively on
the name&"' Mr* Jam^ W¥t>te a; list' of naines^ among which, I remcmbefi', wai^ that of
WUliam CsnoH* Thertil wto, thrdit^hont, a jumbled sort of r^p. Then, at Mrs.' Cosm's
request, he went back to the first name, and three rlips Were given, meaning^-as we were
told, Yes. This was not correct H& pvooeeded, getting the' nqps agaon, at th^'naaie
of Mr. Ellis, which was ag^in wrong-; the thMooe also was wtoAg; When Mr^ James
came to the name of hia fitther, there were 00 rajls. He I6ldniaf4ifterwaidi,-that'-
Jonathan Low was- present at the death of hk fathw* and went ffar' the doctor, but thkt-
hedid not get there quite soon enot^; 4nd Mr. JtaDto thou^ that night call the
circimistance to mind ; but Jbe ^did n#t rap. rights oriOeL Then Mr^ Kellogg tried.

i would state that I saw nolfungithfla-e, uiffiiir^ii^theBfaitter, ataU. Butlwenttb'
the wudclow and- wrot^ the naineft of iKfcv persjmaiifr tjhe fpiidt^^land^r^-^i^psl* tlMn&L\ip«^ '
pkdnly in4?ed,'«— i^d iAi^i^em.'ia^^.^iff^^.iam^ batt of then^

Mri. Coan tii^ twic^or thrfe jtiviesytetciould^ not p^^

84 DISCUSSION op SPI^IIUAUSX BETWEEN

Mr. Wetherbee said he thought I had no friends in the spirit-land. I told him, per-
haps that was the case ; bat I coold get no raps. Mj names were written at the window,
so that no one coold see them. If she had told me them I certainly should have though ■
it some^thing remarkable.

. Mb.. Gbihes. -r- 1 wish to ask the question, whether, when the committee had got
through with those enyelopes, they stated, in the presence of the whole of the committeOy
that tiieir functions, as a committee, were end^

Mb. BtTGBBE. — Mr. James and Mr. Kellogg both said all we had to do was to get the
names in those envelopes, and their duty was ended. Mrs. Coan replied that she would
try in her way, and, perhaps, some spirits would come and give the names in those en*
velopes. We consented, after s(Hne little demurring, to try it

Mb. Gbimbs. — I want to ask you one more question, t Did you see any thing that
gave you any idea of the reason why you didn't get any answer to your question, while '
Mr. Kellogg and Mr^ James received answers to theirs ? Did yon see any difference in
the proceeding ?

Mb. Bitobee. — The difference was that wheni went to the window, to write my
ballots, and enclosed them in papers, at the window, which was ajbout tea &et distant,
Mr. Kellogg sat on one side, and Mr. Child on the other; Mr. Kellogg- sitting next to'
Mr. Wetherbee, and Mr. James next to Mr. Child. They wrote theirs on their hand.

Mb. Gbimes. — Could she see them^

Mb. Buobee. — No, sir.

Mb. Gbimes — Could she see the pencil move ?

Mb. Bugbee. — She couldn't see the writing.

Mb. Gbimes. — When yon wrote this, Mr. KeUogg, did you write in such a way that .
she might have seen the top of the pencil ?

Mb. Kellooo. — I had a long, black penciL

Mb. Gbimes. — Could she see the top move ?

Mb. Kellogg.; — I don't know that sh^ did.

Mb. Child. — Mr. Bugbee urged the medium to answer his four ballots, Which hd
selected, himself, after it had been written, through the medium's hand, ^^^^ We can do
no more for you to-day." It was after it was considered that the manifestataons were •
closed, that he urged this upon the medimn.

Mb. Milleb. — I would here state, ladies and gentlemen, very briefly — I will en* '
deator to be brief^ for I do not wish to occupy our precious time — that, yesterday
morning, in my room, while alone, I wrote the names 6£ ten individuals. I rolled them
up, I should think, in eight or ten thicknesses, round and round. I placed them in a
piece of paper, all together. I called tipon Mtb. Coan, and laid them upon the table. I
could not see a smgle mark inside. I know that no human' being could, with th^ nat-
ural oigaa of fflght, see any thing I had written, inside. ' I wrote, trpon one, the name'
*'Bnfus,'' my eldest brother, who passed away more than fbrty years aga Upon another
piece of paper,! wrote the name of a former schoolmate J I wrote it ** Catherine Smi^i '.
or Harriet Smith" — I had fin^gottdawhiBtte her name was Cttheri&e or Hnilst. t ''

LSO KILLER AITDi PBOV.' 6lMnn, 85

roDed that up. Before this bad been opened, where I know it waft impottnble for her
to see, or to have seen me write the names — indeed, I bad no pencil— ^ I wrote them
nith a pen, in mj room, — raps were made, indicating that the spirit of the name writ-
fjsii in a given ballot was present She shoved die others back, laid (hat aride, and
wrote out *' Ruftts." I unrolled it, and found the name Rujus in it iShe wrote
oat another, ^-^ Harriet Smith." I opened the ballot and found it to be that on
which I had written **' Catherine Smith, or Harriet Snuth." I know that it was
not in the power of man ordinarily to have seen the contents of those ballots. There-
fore, I came fovward, last night, willing to give my brother every opportmdty of know-
mg the tra£h. I felt that I was staking nothing. Truth cannot suffer. I am will- '
ing to give a fair opportunity to every man, to investigate the subject And when I
stated that the gentleman might seal the papers in envelopes, I took a liberty which the
spirits never granted, a fact which I have since learned, though only to-night When
communications are received, names are written on slips of paper, which are rolled
round and round, and then Isdd upon a tabic. It is not necessary that they should be
written in the presence of Mrs. Coan, as neither of mine were. Go there earnestly
desirous to learn the truth. You may write the names at home. But do not write the
name of an obscure servant, one whom you Ihink so little of that after writing it you
foiget it in a moment Do not insult the ^irit of the poor servant with such s%ht
respect ; because, it is offering an insult to the spirit which it would feel as keenly as
you or L My brother said, last night, he would not write the name of a mother, a fother,
a brother, or a sister, because it is too sacred. Now, he writes the names of some
spirits for whom he cares nothing. ^ Here is a low and dirty business," he says, ^ and
I will get a spirit I care nothing about, to test it" I say, if you go there, go de-
siring to find the truth; and do not treat the subject with such a foeling that yon
will not intiroduce the name of one who might be likely to respond to you. I say I
made a fair offer. I am glad I have done so ; it has elicited facts, there, which shall
tell upon the community. The chairman of the committee went back to the papers,
and, desiring still mor^ proof, took four names, after the s|nrits had said they would com-
municate no longer. If I say, to-night, I will speak no longer , you cannot expect me
to speak. And allow me to say, further, that ninety^nine failures never disprove one
positive fact

And now, I would suggest to my brother, that we occupy but fifteen nnnutes each, in
our remarks, as the evening is fiur spent

[After some conversation in relation to the time to be allotted to the evening^s discus-
rion, the quesUon was read, by the chairman, as follows : — "]

Cbh the various phenomena known as modem £^inrit Memi/esuaions bs sat^faetorU^ amd pkOossphieaUif ocf
eimnted far without admitHng the agency of departsd hmnan beings f

Anybody would suppose, Mr. Churman, fixnn the remarks of my friend, here, that
the committee had reported that the experiment which he proposed^ had succeeded.
You have not heard him say one word about any fiulure ; on the contrary, it is a pod-
tive success ! If the committee had reported that the medium had answered every
word, the gentleman's tone could not have been more triumphant He is delighted at
the result ! Splendid success I It reminds me of some newspapers we read, sometimes^
after an election : — " Glorious triumph I " and all that. Now, I state, in justice to that
committee, which my friend has slurred, every time he has spc^en — talking about their
*^ servant," and thdr dmng this and that — in justice to them, I wSi say that, about a

86 Di8Ci;i3xoi| or wifUTUAuax bbtwekic

year ago, I Uiiok il was, I galled At the Lome of one member of tlia cqmmittee» wuip in
a convenatkm, I ipoke, suviereljr, agaiiwi Spiritualism, and i was rebuked. So far waa
be from being pr^udicod agaiiist Spiritualism, that, though bo was not a SpiritoaliaC^
when I said that this very experiment we hare been trying could not be performed, btt
thought J was wrong. I mean the chairman of the committee. -He said -lo me that .if
I would go to Uansfield, and try it, it would be refutcnL I said I would give five hunr
drcd dollars if Mansfield could tell the contents of the envelope. We went; and the
mcdippi looked at me and concluded not to try it — he didn't like my looks. I don't
think Mr. Mansfield liiWiir me. I never saw Mr. Mansfield before. I mention this lo
show bow Tree (roqi pngudice that man was, on that side, and that the pr^udico was
the olhcr way.

Me. Miller. — Is .my brother discussing the quertion now ?

"^n. Grimes. — I will thaok you, sir, to allow mo to speak. I have not a master
here, I hope. There is one chairman, and there are two speakers.

In rc^rd to another member of the committee, I will say that in a oonversatioa I had
with him, two or three days ago, which I cite to show how far he is from being prejudiced,
••— he and I divided on that question. lie told me that he believed certain of these
manifestation wore produced, — not by spiritual agency, but manifestations that mig^
be otherwise lux'ounted for. I tohl him that they were all either a humbug or a dehir-
sion, and he had scarcely (he patience to hear me. ^* Why," said he, ** yoa don't mean
to say that these people are all mistaken ? " ^* I do mean to say so," said I. " Botjiere
are the books and authorities." ** Why,'' said I, «* what have books and aathorities to
do with facts ? If a thing can be done, it can be done ; a book has nothing to do with
it" It is my opinion that if that woman had answered the questions, he would not
haye been much surprised* I bebevje ho tdd me he knew nothing about it I am in-
elioed to think he was entirely new to the whole subject — I donotithink he ever spoke
to a medium before, in his life. Nov, my ground is this — and I took it with the utmost
sincerity. Let apbody think that J stand like a man axguing a bad case, and trying to
tw^t things and make them come right I stand here, a^ffuing in f^vor of that which I
bej^ve to bo t4,*ue. And when the ge^tIe]^an proposed an experiment, last night, I
objected to nothing ; you must have observed the confidence with which I trusted to the
expenxaont if there yv^ Any thipg in this -dootrine, if there was a poisibility of the
thing being fairly done, did I not expose myself to an utter defeat ? What jnore.could
I have done .? Ajpd now, tjie medium ^}:^ she doesn't read scaled envelopes, — they are
to be rolled up — I will submit to that; bring them in, here, and try it ; and if she can
tell what is written in them, they may crucify me, — if she can do it, I will give her all
the money I have got, and all I can borrow. D9 you hear jthat ? AccordiDg to her
own promise, as stated here, let me try the experiment, and sJie cannot do it. That com-
mittee, when they tried the experiments described by Dr. Child, were not acting with
any consent of mine^ or in their capacity as a committee, and I repudiate it They
didn't know how to try the experiments. There was but one, the chairman, who knew
any thing about the matter. The other gentlemen had examined the facts onjy ia
books a^d therefore were not fitted fat tryipg the experiment — they didn'jt pretend to
be skil^l in trickipg.

Now, I take this ground^ and speak out most conscientiously. They say I make sport,
and an^ not serious enou^i. Tliose whotalkof meinthat waydonotknowme. My sport
is in n^ianuer only. I never read ap amusing bode. I have not for five years read, in'
my sti^ies, a novel or an atuusing bo(^ of any kinjd. Those who know me, kvow that

XfiO ItlLtVR AKD TSOF. GRD^Eg. fiP7

'ttrjr employmentB are of the most serioos kind. Now, then, I say I have no idea that any
of these things can be done. I believe cv^iy one of those physical manifestations really
^performed, is done by jugglery and deception. Do not charge me inth insulting and
dbbang people : if it is ignorance, have charity, imd ridicule my ignorance by one suc-
•icenfol eKperiment. Do not give me words, ujord-factay assertions, talk, but something
tisq^le. The gentleman has seen these things, every day, and yesterday he had a now
'proof, and I cannot see how it is otherwise than that it should have convinced his
mind. I confess that had I been &vored with such a proof, the influence would have
been tremendous i^n me. For myself, I never have had a successful experiment of
^thst kind, and I have tried more than any man I know. I have been in an investiga-
'tion of Spiritualism ever since it began. This modem Spiritualism began with me, in
my lectures, at Poughkeepsie. The very first mediuin sprang out of my lectures. I do
not mean to say I had any thing to do, intentionally, with the matter. The fact is, I
^wisnt there — in 184S, I think it was — to lecture oh mesmerism and the nervous sys-
tem. I thought I bad discovered somethii^ about the subject, and was delivering
lectures upon it ^ A boy named Andrew Jackson Davis became interested in it ; and
iODt of that excitement sprang the whole thing. Davis was mesmerized by several
pexvons, particularly by a man named Livingston. I wiA not give the details of the
natter, at this time ; but the result was that he became a healing medium, and went
fliroogh Connecticut, healing diseases. I denounced it at the time. I said it was a
fraud upon the public. And I say, now, of every one of your healing mediums, the
House of Correction is die proper place for them. They can't do more than any quack.
I will test it. Bring into the presence df any of thetn a number of sick and well per-
tons, with a cloth ovelr their faces, and I will engage they cannot tell the sick fh>m the
trelL Now, if the spirit can't tell which has the rheumatism, and which the bro-
ken 1^, they cannot tell what the diseases are, much less cure them. And yet they
|iretend to tell about the liver and lights — !and a poor doctor in Ohio, who spent his
tHiole life in earning money, now that he is dead has to cam money for these people who
ddb't know any thing. I tell you, again, I am honest in this matter. If you dare try it,
I will try it I tried that experiment with a great deal of confidence that it would &uL
Had it succeeded, I should have begged permission to try it again ; because, in science,
the rule is this. You try a certain experiment, and it has succeeded. ** I don't believe
that Are you sure you left the errors all out?" I say, ** Yes," '* Surely, it cannot
be possible," — you have a right to say, =— ** let thfeTTy it** Now in trying experiments,
there are, as these people say, many conditions. Put them aU in,-aUd the ei^periltent
•scceeds. One man suggests that in some of thfise mdic^iensable conditions lies the se-
cret of the success. You leave that out, and the experiment fails. That, then, is the
thmg. If not, why wiU the experiment fail if you omit this? It is a pandlel case,
here. You try the experiment, and it succeeds. ^ Will you say it is a spirit ? " No ;
it is a cheat" ^ Oh, no ; it is not a cheat" *' Just try it and leave the cheat out"
^ Oh, no ; there is no cheat there." I iuisist that you try the experiment and let me
leave t^ cheat otit 2t Isdls every time. Ermylime, I beg yduoncemoi^ not to
ondflrstand me as bhKgwg anybody with «aay ^rimeor wrong ; I only i^ak my cspe^
xieaoe. I Kleal wkh these mediums just tti.4nth « juggler. " YcAi see thSs bsill," ^to
juggler saya^ '*mi ny haond: now, will thfe i^mt ouvy that <aff?"^->-«nd it is gone.
<< WiUyou let me tie a bag around your hand?^ ><^^," he sa^'S, *'I can't d6 it unldsir
you fhlfil the offfidtiumi." Aft^he telb you 'of the ttianf Respectable friends he haa. I
tayhe cheats.
The question beftte tfii Hds evening, is ttSsi Can ike various phenomena known as

88 DISCUSSION OF SPIBITUAUSM BETWEEN

a • . .

modem Spirit Manifesiaiions be satisfactorily and philosophicaUy accourUed for wkkout
admkiing the agency of departed human beings f

" The phenomena known," — not these phenomena tliat they say take place — I say
there iare no such phenomena, and J have been taking that ground throughout Tb^
are some. The phenomena known as '^ Spiritualism '' may be divided into two classes,
the mental and the physical. The mental are nearly all true. Of course, there isttome
humbug about it lliere isin.every thing ; for one person may be in a trance, really and
sincerely in a trance, and another pretend it But I do not mean to say that the men-
tal manifestations are all false. Many are true, and I tliink I can prove it as well as
anybody can. I can produce all the manifestations, here publicly, that they can. I
can beat them at their own game, a^d give them odds. I can make trance-speaking
mediums, as good as theirs, talking and writing mediums as good as theirs, and that will
produce the manifestations as well as theirs. That, I admit, I can pei*form, myael£
Let us have a medium, to produce raps and answer mental questions, thus. I cannot do
it I cannot do it without cheating. ^^ Well, but it is done.** I cannot do that, and
neither can you. Let us see you do it. We will bring twenty men lo see this done,
and they shall decide whether you can do more than I can. When I speak of men^
que3tions, I do not mean to deny the possibility of an answer to them, as a mental
phenomenon. I do not know but the questions in that envelope might be answered;
but I do not believe it I. was perfectly willing to be shown it I am to account for the
known manifestations, and I will do it* But when the gentleman says such and such A
thing happened^ whereas it did not happen, he says he wants me to explain it What ?
explain a thing that does not exist, expl^un a thing that his own experiments fail in
showing ? And if Mrs. Coan wants to try it over again, in her own way, we will try
it She can't talk about shrinking. She is in the habit pf giving these tests. They
advertise for her. If you will pay so much, you can have it Not one thing can be
answered the committee. To help her out, I will write twenty names, on pieces of pa-
per ; and if she will tell one name, I will give her more money than she has made this
week, and I will own up, and it shall be jn the Report, and an illustration of it She
has rapped in public, again and again, and if she will come here, on this stage and make
a rap, I will sit down. There might be one rap made under those circumstances ; — if
there can, I will examine, — that is alL

MBLMOiLER.

Mr. Chairman^ Ladies and Gentleman : The question is, — Can the various phenon^
ena known as Spirit Manifestations, be satisfactorily and philosophically accounted for, tot^
out admitting the agency of departed human beings t I would here say that the word
known was intended to imply nothing more nor less than that the scxalled spirit-manir
festations are known by that name.

Mr. Grimes. — I do not quibble about words. •

Mr. Miller. — I have spoken to my brother in regard to that, before ; and I am
sorry that he dwelt upon it so long. And I do r^^ret, exceedingly, since we have
mntnally concluded that this diseqssioii shall close to-morrow night, that he has not
commenced, this evening, an explanation. What has he said? — ^/made and built
up Spiritualism,'' — ** J tell yon it is false,*^ — <* J tell you there is no healing medium in
the world but is a cheat** ^ Big / tell yon they are fit subjects for an insane asylum.*

Mr. Grimes. — Oh, no, not insane asylum ; they don't deserve it

. LEO MILLER AND PROF- OBIX£S. 89

Mb. Milleb. — House of Correction, then.
Mr. Gbibces. — That is it

Mb. Milleb. — Now, he who repodiatcs the testimony of others, should not use big
/, quite so oflen ; he should not tcU what he has seen and knows, and in the next breath
reject the testimony of men quite as competent to decide this matter as him8cl£ He
did beg of me to receive the testimony of these three witnesses. He says they are
well known in this city as men of integrity. I believe their testimony is good enougl^,
and yet I want to point out to my brother wherein his committee have failed ; I do not,
in the least, doubt, if either of these gentlemen should say they had these envelopes,
that they did have thcnu Yet, I repeat, he did ask me to receive their testimony, upon
tiie statement that they are men of candor and integrity.

A failure may occur. We all acknowledge there never was a science developed, but
there were a thousand inures before it succeeded. And it is well known, that a failure
does not disprove any thing. And let me add that a connterfeit docs not destroy the
validity of the genuine. Tliat these things may be counterfeited, I will acknowledge.
Mr. Bugbee told me, to-day, that ho had witnessed mental nianifcstations, where
tibooghts were read, — mind acting upon mind, independently of the five senses. He
believes it. And now, my brother says, he has the envelopes, and believes these to be
tiie true ones, and we are to receive that testimony. He stands up and says, *' I know
tihat mind-reading is true.'' Does not Mr. Bugbee's testimony go a thousand times further
tiian that of a man who shrinks away, in his mind, and says, " I don't know it is true*?
Does the gentleman intend to offer negative testimony, to overthrow positive, direct
affirmations ? He says that where there is a rap there is a rogue. How can he say
so ? — has he witnessed every rap ? has he seen every manifestation ? No. Rev. G. W.
Skinner, of Newport, Herkimer County, New York, is a rappmg medium, and a minis-
ter of the Gospel ; and a year ago, he said he was quite interested in this subject, in
spite of himself, and that fi>r the past year he could not write a discourse without hear-
ing raps on the table ; denoting approval or disapprovaL

Is not the testimony of Mr. Skinner, who says he b likely to lose his situation as a
minister, on account of this, good ? Now, one of the most overwhelming arguments
against the theory of deception, and one which my brother will never bo able to an-
swer is, that there is no sufficient motive for the alleged fVaud being practised. People
seldom lie and cheat without a selfish object in view. Where is the inducement finr
fidsehood and deception on the part of Rev. Mr. Skinner ? Let the gentleman show
the motive, before he introduces his sirecping denunciation and denial. He has spoken
of the candor and veracity of certain men in this house. Now let me introduce the
name of one. To-day, in the companja of Mr. Berry, I called at the express office,
to see Mr. , a man known all over the world, a man whose expresses run to Aus-
tralia, and Calcutta, and over Europe. Bo you know him ? He stated to me a mani-
festation he had received He said he had had a clerk in the express office in Australii^

hf the name of D A——, who was an entire stranger in this place. While acting

as clerk in the office, there, he drowned himself, whetiier accidentally or purposely.
He had appeared in a moody state of mind, and it was thought by some, that, perhaps,
be had, in that mood, pat an end to his life : others thought differently. Mr. A— —
said that he called npon Mr. Mansfield; but before gcnng into Mansfield's room, lie
sat down in the anteroom, and on this piece of paper, which I hold in my bands wrote

^90 DISCVSStON OF SPIBITVALISM BSTlfEEN

the blowing: "Mr. A , — ^Did you drown yourself porposel J", or acciden1alll3r?*

— then folded it up in six or eight thicknesses, took the muciUge, and pasted it -down 8o
that there was no chance to see the name inside. He then went from the anteroom^
tiirongh another room, into TAr, Mansfield's office, laid the paper upon the table, and

field his hand upon the part wtich contained the name of D A . Mr. — '• — teid

he would take his oath, before Grod and high heaven, that the contents of that paper
Irere unknown to any man living, but himself. Ho took it from under lock and ke^.
The following answer was written through Mr. Mansfidd : —

*< Mt Dxas . — Wliy aak me thatT Is it not soiBcient that you know I have passed on? But, dew

one, I did not drown by accident. 1 well knew what I was doing ; I had become sick of VtBa. But ask me no
mmo about that. ** Yoxa flHend,

"To .»

Mr. told me he did not believe that this man was known to three men in thit

place. It just happened to enter his mind, as he came in there, that he would write to

thu spirit. Mr. A told me, the day afler I heard of this, that if it would be any

additional evidence, the paper might be opened, to show if it contained the iBquir)^
Now, my brother says human testimony ought to be relied upon, provided the witnessei
'are as good men as compose his committee. What will they do, to account for thif
fact ? Brother, the laboring oar is in your hand. You have assumed the responsibilitgr
from which the entiro scientific and theological world has shrunk. Many have made
efforts, many have made their theories of exjdanation ; but their theories have died out*
You have come forward, here, to account for these facts. Did you suppose, when ycm
consented to the discussion, that these facts were to be illustrated before the public ?
H you did, you greatly misapprehended.

Ma. Grimes. — Thafsa&ct.

Mb. Miller. — You have given your statement that you know these things to hd

fiilse ; and you expect us to believe it I have given the testimony of your citizens, —r

and how do you account for the facts ? It is not half so extraordinary as the '^^ rock

story,** though it may not be found in the Bible. I will give other cases. I hold

in my hand, — and I have since obtained the consent of the gentleman to have -his

name given,— ^ abetter, which I will .read.

•*Boa(Toir,Maieh8th,lM^ '

'*Lm MiT-MTt^ Esq.,— Bear Sir, — 'Agmmiblj to yourTeqiMst^ j(iTe yon an aoconnt of two iiiBiilfliirtartmii^
QTft of many, which Jiare taken place in^ny own bimse ihroxKh the medinmship of Mr. Squire. On» lAns
noon we were sitting in conversation; — a pencil which had fallen from the table was suddenly thrown back
agiln. I asked Mr. Squire If he did it. He replied thKt he did not. I immediately said, let us see If Itvia
1m Jose again. I pnt-the pencil on the floor and took -the medium's hands in mine, — s^pdn ttaeBttteliwai
thnnns on the titble. I then took a pencil from my pocket, threw it on the floor, placed ay feet oli hia tel|
aB4 took his hands in mine; the TCBult was the same as before; the pencil appeared on the table. Ithentook
my Imlft and marked the pencil so that there cotild be no mistake about it ; -^]R>ur or fiye times it rose ttcm
the floor a foot or moreabofe the lable«nd Ml upon It. Vh^re wte no peieon la4he«oom, except Mr. BqiJW
Md myself : it was In bfoad dayUgbt.

■({ The dther maniisetatiou referred to, was the opening of a watch, suspended by a chain from the mediam?k

hand, which hand was closely wrapped up with two pocket handkerd^isfr, and pinned in such a manner as to

MBAer II impossible io get his Aiders out; ttilsliaiid, wMb the watch Hins attached, ihui held under fhe tMa;

hi» oHmt l»nd and. those (^ ettiy person pnoent mn placed on the 4able) the waleh would bo opeoad, Ihi

o^^Ofedngihe works semored,an4d>Qp|ied OB the floor. This has been doqe more ttv^n a hondxisd ttmea^

.^l»ut the operation could not generaUy be seen. On one occasion, I sat where I could Jook under the tabli^

I wnt Unb wateh suspenAed;«Bd the medlum'k hand, etwelop ed as beRve mentlonBaf was In fAain ji(^t, nhili

IiwM isaklagat it,--^<lm watsh iMirio^iV tidsed«p.hsirindihei>aaie.af tfca lrti»wtttwttt a;singisme>WMiitft

of the aadium^ haadt whteh gsiatlned tn sight; in less ttuui ^atf-ft-miante, fee wateh mita -appearsd in s|g>|^

hoi opened, and the cap MX to tha floor. During the whole proeoBs^ thomedinm^i hand was entire^ passlff.

I Wfs thvs liastily written fldi aodbOBt, wliioli yon nmy uid.

^'Beepeetftilly yours,

" D. VammamV

. Will my brother Account £br these &cts? Or will he wy, I will contradict, en^
$irely, ^ human testimonj ? Are not tlMse reiponahle witneMes ? Are thef not
^our neighbors ? And are thej not as competent to inTestigate this matter as my
•Ibrother is ? NoW| he has stated that he has had etery opportnnitj of inrestigatioii. I
jidsh again to impress upon your minds that, in his position as an opponent of Spiri*-
jHAlism, he could not have free access to private circles. He conld not hare the oppor-
^unitj of investigation while known as an avowed opponent Mr. -»—- has, again mfl
«gain, in his own house, seen a large pi^no raised from the floor, and moved about the
joom. Scores of his neighbors have witnessed it This could not take place in his own
|iou8e,.day afler day, by deception, without his being A party to the fraud, and no one

thinks that he is. Mr. was not willing that his name shbuld be made public, in coor

ipection with these matters, and it was only upon the oonditbn that ha name should be
iuppressed from the published Report, that he would ctmsent to have it used in the dis-
i^Bssion. Until my brother can show the motive to induce these gentlemen to enter into
A plot to impose upon their neighbors, in a manner more cruel than the grave, he is bufc
offering an insult to the common sense of the world. I am confident that the public
jegard it in this light Is it because there is no interest in Spiritualism, that this hooae
is not crowded ? Why are not his friends h&re ? It is because they are mortified to
iBscover that he is not going to meet these facts, but.gives the lie to thousands and thoqr
jHuiids o£ our best men and women. For ho has said, to-night, there cannot be a nqp
.without a rogue, there cannot be a healing medium unless he is an impostor, there
eannot be a physical manifestation without deception. Th»e are thousands and
thousands of our friends and neighbors, — sceptics, many of then^ — who have seen
jthese manifestations, though they are not satisfied that they are produced by spiriti^
and who are now waiting a satisfiictory es^planation. WiU they get it ?

Produce your facts, and not your assertions. Ton want me to invest^te Spiritoal-
ism, and you lock it up in the dark. Bring it out Ycai have pieces of paper —

Hb,. MihLS^ — Win Mr. Daniel Farrar rise, and stiate whether he wrote this lettoy
fyrnot?

Mr. Fabrak.-— I did.

The Cuaieman. — This is out of order, unless Mr. Grimes ipves way.

: Mb. Gbimbs. — I trust the chairtaan will do his du^, and prayent ^hen intemp*
lions.

The Chaibman stated that while Mr. Grimes occupied the floor, he could not be
interrupted, except for correction, without Ins consent

Mb. Gbuijec^ — I Jthink every ono rhas nplfc^d the msaoMif in which I hav» been
intcrruptiBcl. The moment I say any thiqg that makes ihe Kentlem«n wince, he risea
find interruptis me An t^ i^tot If he wants to .eKpUin aometbiAg, I am perfect]^
inlling ; but otherwise, I hope I shall be allowed topvoceiBd without intemiption.

J say once move, I alpall not remsurk xipon .the testimoi^ of Ms. Fjaxrar, Mr. — <-<-^ jar
anybody else. It is ent ircly. out x>f xirdcr, here. I am n^jgo^lg to get intoapersonal quarrel
ivith thc^ people. - They hav0 managed, in e^veiy way, iiooe this debate has been gomg
qm, to get me to engiige in a quarrel with their dsten or mothers, dOr to say somethifc^
^(IsreapectM ; and mw t^y vi^it m« to aaj stm^l^ diflEe^>6Qt^4o4oiiie^reiqpectAU^

92 DisoussfOK or spmttuALis^r between

man. I know mj own position, and what is due to miyself and otkers, too well to call
in question the veracity of others. I can show how it b that honest men can fai^pj theif
fee such thmgs; and Mr. S«iderland, — who stands before me, — though a S[Hritiiat-
ist, will say that a dozen honest men can be made to see a piano raised, and will swear
to it, while it nerer rises an inch. Does not Mr. Sunderland know it is so ? I h«v%
-done it hundreds of times ; and, therefore, I am not going to say that no honest maia
has seen a piano rtused. Thus, an honest man will see a thhfig that is not there. I haV6
made hundreds of mediums as good as any ^'ou ever saw, — speakmg mediums, tipping
■mediums who will tip a table over and break it, and who will not believe they are de^
ceived. Talk about candor ! . Why did not that gentleman take up my offer, when I
said Mrs. Coan Could not produce their alleged manifestations ? I said that where there
is a rap there is a rogue. Perhaps she is here.' Let Mr. Skinner come here, he ism
rapping medium ; he can't help it, poor, unfortunate man I If he can't help it, we
Gouldn^t help hearing it Such a man hears a rap, and when others wish to hear it he
says, *' There was a rap ; and you must not question my character ; " and another stands
here, and says, " That is my sister ; do not question her veracity.** What can I do ?
Here are rapping mediunn — there are hundreds in this city ; — you boast of their num^
beir; .and a committee cannot go and test them, but you must have another committee to
protect thenL And instead of bringing facts, they bring writings, and force me, if I do
not accept the statements, to contradict the witnesses. Not that I do not respect the men.
Suppose Cluef Justice Shaw nts upon the bench, and a dozen respectable men come be-
fi>ce him and want to swear that there is a certain piano that is in the habit of rising.
a?he chief justice says, " You cannot give that testimony, you must bring in yourpiano."
If a man says, " I can prove it by respectable men," ^^ not one of his witnesses will be
allowed to swear. If he says * I have the thing in my pocket,** and fliils to produce it,
the ride of law is that the man is supposed to tell a falsehood. If he has evidence in
his power, and does not show it, it is cheating. If you have healing mediums, why do
you not take up my offer ? You cannot make a rap, you cannot make a table move an
inch, you cannot perform a eyre, under fair circumstances.

The gentleman has dragged in a remark in regard to the fulness of the audience.
The first night we met here, I asked my friends to report to me the character of the
audience ; and the answer was, nine-tenths were Spiritualists. The next day I inquired
among the opponents of Spiritualism why it was that they did not attend in greater
numbers ; and they told me it was contemptible business. I went to one of the moat
respectable, editors of the city, and asked him if he would be so kind as to mention that
these discussions were going on. Said he, — *^ I don't want to say any thing about it ;
the thing is dead ; it is killed long ago, and all respectable society treats it with contempt.
Go into the street and scarcely one man in twenty knows any thing about it; scaroelj
any respectable people— of course, he meant his own respectable people — go to that
Melodeon."

The opponents of Spiritualism have gradually increased. This very year, there are
more exponents d Spiritualism, in proportion to the others, than there have been any
year since it originated. Let not the gentleman say, as he has, again and again, that I
have driven them away. If the hall is not quite filjjed, will the gentleman say I hare
driven tiie audience away ? What a disgusting creature I must be 1 But that was one
of those petty, personal things that ought not to have been brought forward.

Let me give you the origin of this debate. In the Mercantile Hall, I complained
that the Spiritualists did not do as they professed to, — that they shrunk from investig^
tion. Dr. Gardner rose, and said that I did them injustice ; that the Spiritualists M

LEO MILLER A27D FBOF; GSDCES. 9S

dare to inveBtigate, — tliat there was no shrinking. Did I complain that the Spiritoal-
isti didn't tell largo stories ? I certainly knew that Did I complain that thc^ woold nofe
teH me of respectable men ? I said they could not move a table an inch, or produce a
rap; that they could tell big stories, and that was all ; that when their claims were sub-
mitted to the investigation of the Harvard professors, they went all over the United
States, to get the best mediums they could, the Fox girls and Redman, and the Daven-
port boys, and they failed. They have tried it now, and they have failed ; and when I
o&r to try it in Mrs. Coan's own style, the gentleman was nlent Lot me tell yon the
reason why their testimony should not be taken. I charge these good people with be-
ing jugglers ; I do not say that these things never really take place, but that when they
do take place, it is jugglery. A juggler stands here -mth a green bag — there is noth-
ing in it — the audience search it, and find nothing in it ; he puts in his hand and puUi
out an egg, as good im egg as you ever saw. He will pull oat a handfid of things
from a hat that has nothing in it You watch it carefiiUy as you can. ^ Gendemcn,"
he-may say, ''that was done by a spirit :** and he. does it again. Some of the most
re^cta'ble pec^le in town will certify that it was done under circumstances where
there was no possibility of fraud. I can bring yon bushels of such certificates as this.
•* Will you not believe human testimony ?" For, if you will, it was done fairly, and by
a ^irit '^ Explain it" You cannot Now, what is the way to t<^st it Here is the
way. I say there is no spirit about it ; it is done by juggling. ^ But that man is a
highly respectable man." How shall we setde it ? Let me have a chance, when he
performs that experiment, to fix it so that he cannot cheat " No ; I shall not insult
him so" — he wiU bring in more certificates and tell more stories. In that predica*
mcnt, I will show that in throwing back that bag, he changed it for another, so quickly
that we could not see it I tried the experiment, and left the cheat out, and it failed.
But gentlemen who knew nothing about these things, and did not know how to try it,
essayed some experiments of their own, and had a rap, here and everywhere. Bnt the
Spiritualists were very careful to exclude me — and my son in particular. Let me tell
you why. I understand their tricks, and they could not have done it I should have said
to that committee, — Don't do your writing where anybody can see it done. Mr. GoodeU,
the Register of Probate, in Lynn, said to me, — '* Grimes, sit there and write, and I wiU
tell you what you write.'* I doubted it He saw only the motion of the top of my pen-
cil, and said, " You wrote, simply, * S. D. Haven,' and then again you wrote your name."
S. D. Haven was an old schoolmate of mine, I thought of him, and thought I would
write some 3trange name. Nobody else was present, and he did it several times. A
man sat in their parlor, this afternoon, while the committee were out, and performed
the very same experiments as Mrs. Goan docs, and showed how it was done. Bring in
l£rs. Coan, and let her perform ^ and I will bring out my man, and let him perform.
Bring in one of the Davenport boys, and let him be tied with ropes ; I will bring a man
who will do as well as he can. If you will Imng an honest man who speaks in a tranycey
I will bring another who will speak in a trance. If yon will bring a rapping medium,
who will allow me so to'arrange the " conditions" that he cannot cheat, I will bring
some one to do as well — for then he could do notlung. But if you wiU not allow in-
vestigation, and throw yourselves upon your dignity and character, of course, I cannot
investigate. You say, " Explain the facts." Here is a man who plays a juggling trick,
and who refbses to allow you to go behind the screens ; and I say to you, — Explain it.
^£xperiments," is the word. In science, experiments must be cross-questioned. Try
experiments with certain conditions ; then vary t&e conditions: and the experiment is
not good unless it will socceed however you may vary it Let a man say, in conr^

94f Discuaaxoxr or bfiritualish bbtwken

hebafl a certain machine, but will not allow me to take it apart Why not? B»*-
canse it destroys the ^' cionditions.'' What is the inference? You want the ^coodi-
tioBs" of jugglery, or your experiments do not succeed. These are hard words : what
do they mean ? I mean tiiat if you let the experiments take place, to-day in the pree-
entse of a committee who are experts, and have that committee write their ballots onfe
of iBght of the medium, not one name can be read. How remarkable, tiiat the
spirits, to-day, should have read the names written where the medium could see the
movement of the pencil, while the ballots of the gentleman who went away to write
them^ they could not read. The gentleman says I have not tried it so often, nor so long ;
a tim^ as is necessary. The ^irits," probably, have been telling him what I have been
doing. I have been interested in the matter, since the fitst, . I wrote the first letter
against the Fox girls. I cannot get- near the Davenport boys nor Mrs. Coan. Why
did not she Want my son ? Because she had met him once before. And when he then laid
down his gold watch, and said, — '* Toll what is in that envelope, a^d you can have the
watdi," a man said, ^* Yon will lose your watch ; she has done that, twenty times, tiCH
nig^" " My friendsj^ said he, ^ my father made me a present of that watch ; and he '
says it t cannot bo done. L will never take up that watch if she does it." She did nol^'
do it:; ' and they never do it.

Mr. Miller, -r- 1 will ask my bit)ther a question in psycholc^. What per cent of
humanity at large is susceptible of psychological influence, readUy and easily ?

Mr. CrRiMsa. — 'Sometimes I have tried, and failed to get a good medium, of them
all ; at another, I have tried a dozen, and found most excellent mediums in the whole
of them* Why one person ia a .good medium, and another not, I cannot telL Some-
times the proportion is large, sometimes not, -^ just like catching fish, — you don't know-
what you are going, to have.

Mr. Mill£R. -^-What is the proportion ?

Mr. Gadces. — Perhaps, one out -of four.

Mr. Miller. — I beard Professor Grimes lecture in Mercantile Hall, a week ago
last Tuesday ; and ho stated, there, that about one out of twenty upon the average,
was susceptible of those influences. I noted it down in my book, and am sure I was
not mistaken. Now he says one out of four is susceptible. Here then is a piano, in

the house of Mr. , that is raised up mysteriously. He has attempted an explanation

on the grounds of imagination, or self-induced psychological illusion. The gentleman
had not the moral courage to say, **I advance this as a fheory.** In fact, he has not
advanced a single theory of explanation. He has in big / — "/ say it is so,"" — and

** Bring it on." And yet, in the house of Mr. , hundreds have seen the piano. .

move ; and I venture to say it never movedj with twenty in the room, that one man saw
it rise and the others did not Here, then, the gentleman's theory is good for nothing,
— that the phenomena are to be accounted for on the ground that men are susceptible .
of psychological influence. And if alt meh al^ so ready to be deceived, and may fall
into this psychological state at any time, what reliance is to be placed upon human ten*
timony ? What is the testimony of the five hundred who saw Christ after his resurrec-
tion ? Five hundred have gone to Mr. A 's and seen that piano rise. I have been %

toM that a professor in the colle^ saw the pjano move up and down. He had fidl
faith in the imaginative theory ; and they requested him to put his foot under, and
he lost faith in his theory, at once, and^was clothed and in his right mind.

The gentleman uses his delicacy as a kind of' salvo; and when he wants to evade tho. ,
question, he «a}*8 i want to force hun to attack or speak disrespectAilIy of my sist^.'

LEO MILLER. Ann) PBOF. Gl^BS., 95^

That is a mere caviL My- ^end. weU knowi diat mjr ai^ter can be in. no way ii
catad in the execution. of that painting, having been in the qHrit-world four yean befona
the painting waa executed. Will he. tell mo how she could be implicated ?

Mr. Gbimes. — Aak Mansfield.

Me. Millbb. — Aak Manafield? It has- been nid ihab Mamfieldr hai practiiedr
deeepttOAf — ergoy all the manifbitatiuonfi . ever produeed am lalie. Is this logic? If
80^ awajr goes- Christianify^ fof cTen our ministers acknoirledge that the Fafthenof
the Church made use (^ a- number of pious frauds and interpoUrtianSi MaAiekni im
his Eeclestastioal Hislpiy, aa^fs the eaxfy. Fathers practised' firaudsu But. £at this reaaoQ
are we not to rely on any thing they said? Ibose eaiiy Fathers, with their seal £09
Christianity, felt that the end justified the means. And our mediums may be tempted*
They have read of pious> frauds <m the part of the early Fathen of the Chureh. And.
if it proves any thing in one case, it does in the other.

My brother wants the mediums hertf regardless of every condition whatever, I illhe—
trated this, the other night, very forcibly, I thought, — so forcibly, at least, that my
brother has been entirely silent in regard to it. Does he deny the phenomena of sleep ?
Is ft not governed by conditioasi? I- offered him five hundred . dollars if hs would go tb
sleep, upon this platform^ while IUbt speakii^,- and the- audience gating at^ him. I
deny that there i»siich' acondif ton as sleep, nhless ypii demonstrate it before tfab aodienca.
Do it, yourself. I deny that, yoahavo slept atadl, during the dast five mcnthh Now, come-
forward and go to sleep. You cannot do it ; I will give you a thousand dollars to do it*
Let mo refer you to the iUostration of a. prajremmeetiag^.wfaerB the spirit of devotiQ^
may be utterly driven away by the mere entrance of an . unsyfl^athizing persoa.
Mr. Grrimes is knownraa a bitter and detenmned opponent of- Bpintaalinn, aadaoift
hiftson; therefore, the medium feels that id»e or- he is to be left misi^presented : they-
feel that it may be truer whivh they, have heard, — I know thai it is true — I do notatfy
of ,iBy brother,- but of our t>pponents generally — that there is misreinresenting, that thtt
mediums are traduced,, that they, are maligned. Now, there is a certain passive state of
mind necessary for the reception of: physical manifestations; for i^irits can prodooe
them onjy through a medium, whamust be in the condition of mind and body requisite
fop the production of Iho manifestations. By looking into t^e BiUe, you will see thali
these conditioiis were tl»3re necessary. When Christ restored the widow's scm to his
natural state, from a profound trance,- he turned all the men xmt of the room. In Daniel,
we. find that when the pn^hot desired visions, he fasted. I deny, brother, that a dagner*
reoty^ was ever made. Bring in your camera, and demonstrate it, to-night. All the
intelligence that you possess, and all the aciienee in the world, cannot come forward^
here, to-night, and demonstrate the fact that a daguerreotype may be taken ; because^
you cannot establish the conditions necessary to the production of these manifestations.
And let me say, moreover, that you never saw a picture taken ; the world has never
yet seen the entire process of the execution of the daguerreotype ; a part of it is done
in the daik. Yes^ lidies and gentlemen, remember that the pictures are taken in
dark rooms; you cannot have the privilege of seeing them; the operator must not
himself see them; he must not have light, there, enough to' see them. He must take
the picture in a dark room, — shut down his cover quiedy, and leave the plate in the
dark; and as soon as the shadow is taken, ho must again exclude the light from it

Again, the gentleman talks about evidence. I repeat, that even in court if the fiinstt
best evidence is not to-be obtained, the second-best is good. If I could produce the
raps, J would do it to-night^ but aa qarits do it^.I cannot force them- to come hereb

9$ DiscnsdiON OF spikitudkLisx between

Thiecefore, we inust take the eiidence oi men and women who liave ^thessed these' -
fads, i^ow, if my brother inll accommodate us with a* little more truth, a little more '
argument, s^ little more evidence, instead of his own assertion, we will thank him tery
much. It has been all assertion, as I need not tell you. .

This evening is nearly closed ; there are but twenty minutes more, for my brother ito
sp^ak. He tidks about the coounittee. He says I wanted atsomnuttee to protect tkd
lady, and sneers' at it The sneer shows that my committee was needed ; for had it aoi
been for that committee, the audience would have lost all knowledge that one of the
others had a very bad memory. Yet, the gentleman will spend his time in talking
about this and about' Andrew Jackson Davis. Is it possible that in the discussion of ■
this second question, a question so important, we are to have nothing better ? He haf
a darling theory in his mind, which he thinks will cover some of the manifestatioDB;'
and overy thing that is inconastcnt with that, he refuses to accept He mdces every •
thing bend to that theory. Bemember that facts are the basis of theory. He says it is
ji^lery ; and yet, he does not ^how us how the jugglery is performed.

Mr. Gbimes. — Bring it here, and I will..

Mb. Muxer. — We have stated that the conditions do not render it possible to bring
it here. The necessary state of passivity cannot be produced in your presence. And I
repeat, you cannot produce a state of passivity in your mind, sufficient to enable ypa
to go into the natural sleep. For many of these manifestations, the conditions are very
intricate!

Let me say a word in regard to others who have given their investigation to this sub-
ject Professor M , a learned professor of chemistry, sa^'s he was invited to investi-
gate the subject, and received manifestations which compelled his attention. He states
in his articles, published under the head of " An Old Spiritualist,'' in the Banner
of Light, that while attending a seance, he mentally inquired what course he should
pursue to obtain satisfactory evidence oi the truth of s{»rit4ntercourse. He was directed,
through the raps to form a circle of twelve individuals, composed of six positive and nx
negative minds, and to continue to hold the circles once a week for twenty nights.

He then inquired, mentally as befixre, what they meant by positive and negative minds.
They replied, in substance, that what they meant by a positive mind, was an individual,
who, when it was necessary to say '^ no,'' would say it without fear or favor, — a man
who had a mind of his own and would not be easily moved without the best of reasons :
a negative mind, was one that never could muster moral courage enough to say " no,**
an individual who always went with the crowd, and would believe any thing to oblige
a personal friend. Professor M— ^ proceeded to select twelve persons to compose the
circle, making each one pledge himself or herself that they would pursue their investi-
gation the twenty nights^ whether they obtained any thing or not.

The professor was a good deal laughed at by the ** positive " minds who had already -
set it down as a foregone conclusion that there was no truth in the alleged spirit-mani-
festations ; but to accommodate their eminently scientific friend, they consented to be-
come members of the circle. The circle was held night afler night until eighteen even-
ings had passed, without getting any thing worthy of note, the *' podtive '.' minds, in the
mean time, voting the investigation " a bOTe," and looking forward with anxiety to tiie
close of the twentieth evening, when they would be released from their obligations.

On the nineteenth evening. Professor M and two or three of the " positive'' minds

went to the room usually occupied for their meetings, some little time in advance of the
rest of the company, and, without any definitive object in view, and more cot cf fhn than

Lio wum AHD FBor. oKnaa. 97 ■

aajthrogeite, ifcej placed several pieces of ifliite paper, and fbiir or five pencils, on t&e
floor, under the large centre table, besides a guitar and a harmonicon. The remain-
ing members soon came in, and the circle was fbrmied, as usual, round the table, not a
word being sai^ to, the late comers about any thing being under the tahle. In a short
time they heard a moYement, under the table, on the paper, as if some one was wiitingy
and on looking down (it being light) they beheld, for an instant, the pencils moving
over the paper without the least physical ccmtact from any earthly object On taking
up the papers, they found several names, pooriy written, upon them, designed for difier-
ent members of the circle. Afterwards, their chairs were pulled out from under them
by some mysterious agency, and raps were made on the back of the chairs, floor, and
table. The guitar was played upon while resting alternately on the knees of every
member of the circle. The harmonicon kept time with the guitar, and sent forth the
sweetest music. Late in the evening, a handful of coins was thrown on the floor, and
they were piled up inside a tumbler which had been placed under the table.

The room was well lighted with gas, and the hands of the circle were placed on'
top of the table. Even the " positive " members became interested, and agreed to con-
tinue the sittings, and the same circle sat for more than four years, once each week.

Professor M says that nine-tenths of all e:q)eriments in science have thus &r

fiiiled; and nine-tenths of spirit-manifestation may be questioned, and yet there is truth
left.

One word about deep, upon which the gentleman so harps. Nothing can be more
inconsistent than what my friend has said upon that subject, — that because I cannot go
to sleep here, that proves that nothing can be done without conditions. I acknoi^ledge
that nothing can be done without conditions. You cannot exist without conditions. But
let me see about his illustration from sleep. His mediums cannot come here and per-
form, because I am hero — that is one difficulty — there is something yery bad about me. •
Tet they speak every Sunday, at an advertised hour, before an audience, and the spirit is
here, and sets &e woman a-going. Where is your theory of sleep, after that ? They
will write here. Let me offer twenty-five cents, and I will have a half-dozen writing me*
diums here. And yet, ^' they cannot come here." Here they come by the advertisement
Only give them reasonable pay, and treat them well, and the spirit will come and speak

for you. Professor M -investigates so long, and is a Spiritualist Mr. Harris, who has

been a Spiritualist for fifteen years, the highest and best among you, abandons Spiritualism,
and stamps it as perfectly heathenbh and deviCsh. So much for your ** experience ** and
" investigation." I am told that ifl examine it I will find it not only true but sweet and beau-
tifliL And Harris, one of their best men, comes out, and says — but to-morrow night I will
read you his very words. And if I chose to go on reading, as the gentleman does, I could
show you what language those hold who have had opportunities to know it, and who l^now
what it is. He says the manifestations cannot be produced here, because there is noise
and confusion ; yet, in private circles, where there is as much noise, and where I could no
more sleep than here, a piano rises up to the wall, and a dozen excited people see it Could
I sleep there ? Why, tar, what a miserable escape that is !

Mr. Miller proposed to continue the debate further.

Mr. Grimes. — It is late enough for acljoumment ; and it is no time to ttpetk now.
If the gentleman wishea five minutes, I have no objection*

Mr. Miller. — - Have you any objection to my occupying my twekity minutes ?

98 DiscusaioK ov sKmvuixun^ bexitvek

Mb. CrBQCJps— "ICthfi mifUiepc^ wish to bear it^I havejiojQlgoctkii.. XiNiayigpjipuil^

aUuglit

Lam very flDnT* ire are oMigddtb kate, tp-ii%ht^
faiot;piodiiMd.

Mb. Gbihes. — OraungleexpeiiiQenttriedt

Mr. Millsr. — We bare elahneti to give no experitnents ; bat ire have prodiiced
good and reliable witneMes. Tbe only inference tliat can be drawn ftom the gentfemanV
remarks is tbat the me^Unms are engaged in praetiidng deception ; jetlbe has not said so^
but has left ns to infbr it I would' make a few remarks in r^rdl to some little AnfA hff
has made. ^^Fay the medhmifl and they will come here.** If that b evidence of thc^
dishonesty, and 'm prima facie pnxif that diey arerogoesj is not there prima facie evi-
dence of my brother's dishonesty?-^ — since every one knowr that where a medimn talMl
in iteft dollars, he takes in a hondred;

I would My a wordJn regard to T. L. Hanris. I mentioned the name of ProfesscMr
M-— ^ as- one who, aftera thoix>ugh'8tudy of the subject, has come to the concluidon thut'
Sj^friteaBsm, is trae. My brodier gives the impression that Mr. Harris has abandoned
SpmlaaliflB, entirefy. There is not one particle of proof that hiof has abandoned th6
belief or denies the &ct8, of spirit-intercourse, not even in the garbled report of the
M&rmMg Adoertiser, We have reostved Ietter» from Europe, stating that the report
is greatiij garbled. But let that be as it may, Mr. Harris has not been endorsed by
SpiritualiiBts ^generalTy, for his eccentric views ; and it would seem that he, with a
few-others, have tried to build up a creed, and sought to make others receive it, and
appoint him to the leadership ; and having failed in this purpose, he may have made
remarks in regard to Spiritualism and Spiritualists, wluch will reflect discredit upon his
name, and of which he will, upon more reflection, be ashamed.

* But do the poiats my brother has urged answer my facts? He has not offered a
direct affirmative argument upon the question, to-night ; and to-morrow he promises you
he will read a garbled extract of Mr. Harris' sermon, from the London Advertiser,
He says he will give the very words of T. |i. Harris. How do you know they ave the
words ? A bitter opponent goes into the hall, and says he went there for evidenee
agadnst Spiritualism, and he could hear but one-half of the story. And let me say to
my friend that prejudice is as apt to lead us into an error, as credulity. If a piano moves
around the room, his prejudice is so great he would not see it . Prejudice may be as
blinding as credulity. Taking my brother's theory, — the only one he has admitted, —
is it not possible that, after all, he is the only one really deceived ?

One other statement he has made. He has accused me of casting personal reflectiona
upon him, because I have stated that the reason why his friends were not here it-
that he cannot sustain their side of the question, — that the poaition he had taken
would but act against them. Friends, I would have spared his feelings too much to say
that, had he not voluntarily stated that they kept away because I had not fiiiriy pre-
sented the snlject, because I had not sustained it sufficiently to make it interesting.

Mr. Grimes. — I venture to say it cannot be found in the Report I never
to say that If I used any language that could bear any such construction, it was cer-
tainly an i^a not in my mind. Nobody could say, with any regard for troth, that that
gentleman has not made his part of the discussion, interesting. Fdlr Heaven's sake, do
'.not make aia any wane than I ami fi»r Ijmbs bad enough.

LEO XILLBB AND PBOF. ORXMX8.

99

[Some little diKmaaon bere ensaed in regard to t]ie words used by Mr. Grimes, Mr.
Ifiller further compluning tiiat Mr. Grimes had charged him with nsiiig certain tp^
cific bksphemotis language. This, also^ was denied by Mr. G., and an appeal made to
the Reporter, who substantially confirmed Mr. Grimes' reoolleotion. See page 68.]

Mb. MnxEB. — To-morrow «veping,>m7 bvothei; dkxies pp illie question on the affim-
ative; and I hope and tmstl4 WiU lib iMe io ky di^m*a pont^ and defend it,— to
present his ^tueory^ and arguments in mxppat^ of it

• ■ • I

■' ■ ■ II

• . • ■ I

■ )-i

! 1 . ... * i

• >

: :::';; t :>;:•. :r; «; Wts, ^t? Am tj:..:;;r . .. ;

SATUBDAY, MARCH 8th.

•t,

Opened the diflcunon by reading the fo^owing remarks': —

Sereral distinct issues and points have been made in this debate, which need to be
revKwed in clodng, and placed clearly before the audience.

1. The Spiritualists agree that the spiritual nature of the modem manifestations is
rendered probable, at least, because all the bodies and minds in the universe^ are re-
lated, connected, and in S3rmpath7, and must therefore communicate with each other.

I reply that this does not follow ; for if it did, the inhabitants of Australia, of Amer*
ica, and Europe, would have been acqusdnted with each other before Uie voyages of
Cdumbus and Cook.

2. The Spiritualists argue, that the modem manifestations cannot be oonastently
denied by Christians, because the Bible history and miracles are proved by the same
kind of human testimony.

To thb I reply that, in the first place, the argument comes with a bad grace, and
has no force, when addressed by those who deny the infallible inspiration of the Bible,
as all the Spiritualists do, and who place its authority on a level with that of Homer's B-
liad and other pro&ne writings. In order to avail themselves of this argument, they
must admit that the transactions rec<»rded in the Bible actually took place, as there re-
lated. Whereas it is notorious that Spiritualists, almost without exception, repudiate
the miracles, and most of the precepts and the examples, set forth in Holy Writ

In the second place, I reply that Christians are perfectly consistent, and proceed in
accordance with the established and well-known rules of evidence, when they ac-
cept human testimony to prove the Bible truths, and reject it if brought forward to
prove the modem manifestations. The Bible is a moral and religious history, relating
to events which are presumed to have taken place so long ago that all the witnesses
are dead, s The best evidence that the case admits, and the only good evidence which
it is posrible for us to produce in the present day, is the Bible itself. This being so,
any court of justice in the world will receive the Bible, as competent evidence, chi
the same principle that they would receive human testimony, in any case when posi-
tive and occular proof does not exist or cannot be produced.

The SjnrituaHsts are in a difierent predicament They have never claimed, until
this discussion commenced, that they rely on human testimony ; on the contrary, the
whole civilized world has rung with their pretensions to the possession of positive dem-
onstrations which appeal directly to the senses, — not in one placer only, but, in the for-
cible language of Judge Edmonds, " there is scarcely a village or hamlet in the United
States where this evidence cannot be produced." Now, are there any special times
for their appearance ? They are announced as continually, daily, and almost hourly,
forcing themselves upon the attention of persons of all claoios, conditions, and degrees

' LEO klLLI^B ANDFBOF. GlklKBI^. 101

of intelligence. The me^uBu are nnmerons and willing, tbe opportanitieB abandant,
the conditions few, simple, and easily discerned. Under these cironmstances, th^.j^he-
nomenon must be prored by being reprodnced in the presence of those who are ap-
pointed to scrdtinize them. The testimony of those who profbss ID have witn^Bssed
them, cannot be admitted fbr any pmrposie, except as preUminary, and to iBxcite to
experimental investigation.

There is no coart of justice in the world, that will receive the 'testimony d wit-
nesses in such cases, however numerous or creiiHble they may be. The invariable end
is that the best evidence, which the case admits, must be produced ; and if a party re-
fuses to bring it forward, and attempto to introduce a witness, when an expermerU is re-
quired, there is always a presumption of fraudulent intentions, even though no other
evidence of fraud appears.

8. The ground taken by the Spiritualists, in tiiis debate, is that the Bible miracles,
and the other modem spirit-manifestations, are both the results of the operation of nat-
ural law, and not {nt>pcrly and specially miraculous.

To thb I reply that it is absurd to assume that the sun stood still at tiie command'
of Joshua ; that the rock was rolled away from the sepulchre y^ti&t water was turned
into wine ; that the dead were raised ; or that a child was bom of a vir^, by the opera*
tion of natural law. If these things did not take place miraculoudy, by the will of the
Divine Author of nature's laws, they did not happen at alL Nature cannot produce
suck phenomena.

4. If we, fbt the sake of argument, assutue modem Spiritualism to be trae and cany
it out to its logical consequences, we have an excellent example of the reefucfio ad a&-
swrdum. Thus, the Spiritualists declare that departed fiiends' return and haunt their
former residences and manifest themselves to their friends and nearest relatives by nap-
ping, moving furniture, etc Would not the slave mother and &ther haunt their masters
and the ministers who uphold slavery, if this were so ? Would not abolitionists, like
John Brown, rap around the house and furniture and head of the slaveholder ? Would
not departed others and mothers and brothers frighten away those who aim to injure a
daughter, a mster, or a child ? Would not crime be impossible, detection and convictioii
certain, and police unnecessary ? If the spirits of Washington and his compeers could
so easily manifest themselves, would not disunion be easily prevented, and treason surely
exposed, even before it could be uttered ?

If the spirit of Franklin could communicate irith his talented grandson, the present
head of the coast survey, would he not have informed him where the telegrapluc cable
to Eurc^ was bn^en ? Would not the elder Herschel have communicated to his son
the cause of the perturbations of Uranus and dhrected him where he could find the
planet Neptune ? Would not the internal structure and functions and diseases of man
and animals be made known to physicians by the spirit of Harris and Hunter and Jen-
ner and Bell ? Surely, those spirits wotdd be much more likely to give us such com-
munications than the mlly twaddle that mediums pretend to receive.

Again if it is really trae that departed spirits can assume the control of passive
mind, nobne is safe — the moment a natural medium is off his guard he loses himself,
his mind's throne is usurped by a wandering spirit, a medium is a person who caimot say
his soul is his own. Any one who prostitutes the body is considered in&mous, through-
out the world, but what shall we say of one who prostitutes the very soul to the service
of any vagrant spirit that happens to be wandering through this world ? When any one
is imprisoned or abducted away without legal process, a writ of habass corpus is issued to
bring the body into court and show cause for the detention — but by what means is the

10^ DlSOyCfSIOp O? mJBfftJJAUf^ |j;BrWT?EN

CQo^t^e^d mm^ to b^ £^^ w Whttcoqit

lias junw^Qtu^n ? WiH Ju^ge Jpkiqiopds^ or fty friea^ j^ere, aiisw,er ?

s^afled phjonopofy^ct j(naj b^ c^4^ uitp t^q plftfiB^ (me of wj|ucli is produced \j ji^
£(](ei7,^4 9^^ ^^RPPp^y ii)b cap jbfi Miy ai^id ^^iri^ jacn^i^ l^ mfavDft.qf properly
conducted and varied experiments. The other clan is produced hy yyynwTiqfnor ito
CQu^t^rfeitr jvod.^^es^ phenoto^na cfuinpl'be exl^ilHted }fy the ^pi^j^ufdi^t^ in a npazMi^ in
any deg^ c(uperio^ to those prpdncqd by the xa^sfo^lz^grs. If J^e Spiiituali^ deny
thi?, J jvriJl ui^dc^rtake to poduce at s^ort mfiifiSi evpry p|^^e of this spcKues of hooest
mediuo^p whipti .t%y c|tn e^(jhil]||t.

i wii)^ prqduc,^ ;trmic<!| spes^exs ifhoin ftey panncMt snipa^ in elpqfience nor in origi-
nality. The audience may select the subject and may ask questions anddeba^'^jjjththe
mediy^ {o^d epfnX jpBt> |U9 they do w^th tbeus. I will make ifriting mediu^is, of honest
p^ple, e[tr«u^eis to ijDe) yrho never before knev that they pos^qged the ^ulty of -writ*
ing unconsciously. They will write communic/itiony. firom fiiends — generally fix»a rel-
i^YC^ in 1^9 ^irit-lfmd}.Qfte9 of a touching, pious, and a^ectionat^ character, flometilgea
^TUQ^ advice conpen|;iiAg health, sometimes concerning moral coijiducfc or bu»ness mat-
tec^ fif ii^]^ .'frill g^ve ipfc^r^u^tion ccmcerning the manners and habits cif beimgs in the
epuptr}/5tif«d. jjf) a word, they w^l wntje m intjelUgently a^d as- spiritually as any of the
prelyqded qpdtib-tyfic^inns caii.

I can also make mediums that will see visions of the spirit-wwld, coarme witli ita
ly^Ti^lytflntej filial^e baiids ^jvith th^m, ^d d^acpbo^ in gbjmng tennsi Hap hfi^eoly
KJepeiy on ,^e oihf r ,^d^ o^ Joii^.

Qti^ pediiuns, who ^ppefur to be pecfeetly sincere, qui 1^ n^ade, who will hear
raps when anpid ly^^ ^oue vr^ inade — qoq tables and p^ups ripe, wheA n^n^ dp rise,
orifflcictf i yjjouiiji y tip tMfifi qy^r i^hile they seepi to ^ holding t)iep;i yp. To do this J
h^yeqi^y t^ PFpd^^i iPPPf^ons of a. particular kind upon thi^ir mind^ under proper
Qil^i(i]^stauc^ until I pgrajdijipe a swnambqlio and dreaming i^M^te. ^Pie Spiritualists
iiepj.y, t9 this, th^t spirits mesii^rizc ^st as I do, imd this is the ^ason of the resemblance
^tf c|en their m«ufes);atjons and those of my i^edii^ps — ithisy say lliat thf^ vfdl of a
spirit of onid de^ cap pa^pi^peii;^ j^ mU^ wU.Ojf 4 spiri;t gf 99^ alive cap.

^^ t^ere is t^ ^tal defect at the foundation of this r^^aponiag ; fin: it is not tr^ iha^
the toill is essential in mesmerizing, as is generally suppp^sed, 9or is it t^e t^i^it to piro-
4ucve t^e m^cn^Pieriip or i^^dmm state th^ qiust h^ twopter^ou? e^fig^ opi^ of whpm is
an active op^irajbor ^ ^nesmerixe^ «ind the other a P9^ye sujbje<^; ^, ^suscep^Ua pev-
EOfi can \^ tang]^ to nuesmerif e bixoap^, an^ boccone whfJt tl^e Bpiritualiats call a {nediun^
without t^ intervention Qf any operator, ^ea^ views and doctrines ace not npw taught
for the firsjt tJ9M» : I have taught them for quyiy yea^ in n^y Icbctnres, and have expliiin^
and= iUi^stiat^ thm «f l^gth i|n a booji, written two yea^s ago but just puli^i^hed by
Jafi^es M^?^^ ¥. P^> ^ ^^ f4^7t ^^.dl^^ ^ Human $^uxe and ^e Nerves, and thp Art
of making Mediums." I bjeg here to refer you to that ww^ and I h^ye po <kn4>t thft
pul^Hysl^rfi will ^^k me for. this f^lyertisemeni. I ought t^sta^ further )du|t 4U t^e
C^enp^iA Olf v^e^meripp find trftnce i^a/^ 1^ ^p^ed on strictly sd^eutjfio nud pt^yVr
iote!P«l^ prwripl^

1 wrote tlus out because I desired to have it quite definite. I generally speak
eztemporancK^ly, or, as, I heard a Spiritualistic medium once say, exten^tonuhudyi.
But Ilbaye made these points distinctly, in order that they might be dear, if. In some
dtiicf j^Mtrts^ I might have 8ix>ken hastily.

£BO MZLLSft AMD PBOr. ^mXMMB* IDS

But in regard to the explanadmi of theie phenomeuu There is one class of them
Willi which most of jovl most know I tun sooiewhat famiHar. I reftr to l3io8e they caH
■wwerie. Mr. Sanderland, who does me the h<mor io attend my ^flcnanon, is, ahm,
maiy fiuniliar with that sob^ect ; and I am sure he knows, and -mfll tesdfy, if joa desire
it, that these phenemeaa of trance speaking, and seeing tilings and hearing sounds that
tan not there, do net necessarily require a mesmerixer; that there are many persons
^Aom I can teach — and, indeed, I can teaoh any person very soscepdUe of mesmerism —
to pat themselves into « trance. Such a person can spes^ as a trance medium ; he can
§m h^y^m 4xt — yon know where; he can see spirits of any kind,

Blut q^kltf or fngr.**

And, dierefore, when I see a trance speaScer pretending that it is not he^ or she, but a
•pint, that speaks, I don't know whether iSbey are deceiving the audience, or fhem*
selves ; I believe that in nine cases out of ten tiiey are dishonest It is just as in court,
m\4k a person pouring himself, — you cannot tell it by his appearance. I have oper-
aited, in mesmericd experiraenti, upon persons who have deceived me, when I supposed
the phenomena w«re real In the same way, I have seen persons who were making a
psetMKje of bmg in a traaee, who I iMlieved were really as wide awake as I was. The
aame person may s o m e times be honest, and sometbbes dishonest, and playing a trick
ii|KNi 4heir andienee. A person in a trance state is in the same con^don as when he
er she is asleep, dreaming; and this can be proved, to entire satisfaction. Of course,
•odh a flcientifio fhct cannot be proved to the satisfhction of persons who never read sd-
enoe and cannot reason on any thing ; but ^e me a jury of fair, educated medical
men, and they will decide that this trance-mediumship, thn spiritual state, and dream-
Ib^, are all one, and that there is not a single point about the trance type of speaking
ev writing, that gives the di^test eridence cf spiritual manifestations. It is either
fbimded upon ignorance, er upon some worse motive.

{It was here agreed, between tiie disputants, that the debate tiboM be continaed
through two additional evenings.]

Mr, Chairman^ Ladiet and Gentiemufi : I was aomewhait surprised when my brother
ajose and Introduced, here, this evenin|^ far the first time, I mi^ say, a i^^ative arg»^
ment on the first proposition. It does seem to me that amy lyceum student should n»*
derstand that my brother's argument at the outset, though proper in itself, belonged
npoa the first question, and should have been introduced as a negative argument agaiosl
my affirmative ai^umeats. Beally, since this discussioB is to go befixre the world, £»
my own part, I would like to see it conducted orderly, and with pix^iriety, and gov*
emed by the rules of parliamentary debate ; ajud if my brother wiU oonfine himself t»
^ question that is beifore us, such will be the case.

I hardly Cbel at liberty to go on anU oSer an argument against his first negative, pc^
ffltion^this evening. Yet I shall do 80» and theii I sheiUi begin to- pile fhcts upon fiKts;
and since we are to have more time, and since the gentleman has insisted upon it thai
ancient ^irit-manifestations were produeed miraculoualy, and that modem ^rit-man^
ftetations are not, I shall proceed to show their perfect analogy — to prove that they are-
precisely aHke ; and that those theologians who have claimed that the fi>rmer was mi*
raciolous have erred in their theological definition of a mro^,-^ that the idea o£ 4:
miracle grew out of the ignorance of the human mind in regard to the laws of nature.

I

104 DISCUSMON . OF . •PIRITUALI^M BBTWEEN

But to the position which the.gentlemaoi has raised this etening. I think I have deorlj
shown, heretofore, that he has, in rejecting our evidence, taken the same position whiali
every infidel writer has ever taken, in regard to the testimony d the Bible witneasoik
i think I have also clearly shown that in denying the spirit-maniCestations, and Tanoos
gifts of the present day, his position is antichrist. And to-night, my friends, he hm
taken the ground of the atheist i You cannot look into an atheistical work in the worldi
you cannot talk with an atheist, but he will use the same arguments which my brotfaiar
has offered here to-night When Bobert Dale Owen discussed, with Mr. OrigenBadifi-
lor, the question whether there be a God or not, one of the strongest arguments whiidi
Owen used, and which he wielded with such mighty power against his opponent, was
the &ct that evil cxbts, slavery exists, crime runs riot, and yet God does not cause it to
cease. My brother says, — If there are spiritual beings, and there is crime^whydo
not these spirits descend, and put an end to it ? Owen says, — If there be a God of the
universe and he be a God of infinite love, mercy, and justice, why does he not stay tiha
assassin's hand ? Why does he not roll back the tide of wickedness, and cover the one-
mies of truth with shame ? If that discussion is to be found in this city, and it it
necessary, I will bring forward the book and show that Owen, when an atheist; took
the same positi<»i with my brother. :The churches begin to tremble ; and the
friends of my brother begin to feel, — If you strike a blow at these modern manifiaa-
tations, if you strike a blow at Spiritualism, away goes the whole fabric of Christianity.
Beally, I feel a sympathy for my brother, when he is compelled to take this ground. Is
it not plain to your mind ? He says that if we are surrounded by evil spirits, and they.
may exert an influence over us, we have no safety. Did not Jesus Christ teach us that
we are surrounded by good and bad spirits ? Was he not himself tempted ? He said to
Satan, ** Get thee behind me : " and angels came, and ministered unto him 1 Here,
then, are good spirits, which are ready to aid us. in rensting the bad. Does not
the entire Church, the theological world, teach the doctrine of good spirits and bad ?
Have we not been told that there is a devil, that '* goeth about like a roaring lion, seek-
ing whom he may devour ? " Where is our safety, then, says my brother if there are
evil spirits ?

Mr. Grimes. — In God.

Mr. Miller. — Yes, brother, in the infinite Grod. And those messengers that come
from the realms of light are his ministers. We find good and bad in this world. We
find evil-minded men that would seduce us down to the very gates of hell, even as we
find a mother and sister and brother, whose counteracting influence helps us to resist
them. Why, I might ask, does God suffer bad men and women in this world ? Why-
has he ever permittted any thing like evil ? The question is just as pertinent. I re-
peat to my brother, that our safety is in the infinite God. We are surrounded by
ministering spirits ; and, as the inspired writer says, these are the " spirits of just men
made perfect" " Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister unto them
who shall be heirs of salvation." We are also surrounded by evil spirits, both in and
oat of the body. And we are taught to resist the evil and seek the good. We are told
to <* try the spirits," which certainly implies that there are good and bad. If they
were all good, there would be no need of testing them. And when we try them, it must
be as we try men, by their words and woiks. If my brother's ailment is good, why, it
is perfectly fatal to the entire Christian religion ; it is perfectly fiital to the teachings o£
Jesos Christ, eighteen hundred years ago. I cannot, friends, in the coarse of this discoa-
ooD, be expected to answer soch statements as my brother very frequently makes. To

LBO MILLSt AKP PBOF. GRIMXB. 105

give 7011 an illustration : — ^' Spiritaalitts reject the Bible^and reject the greater portkm
of its precepts." When he makes stich statements as these, will he refer to the Spiritual^
iflfc papers or joumals, or any leading Spiritualist, that rejects the inspiration of the Old
and New Testament ? A great portion of the Bible, it is true, is not inspired : a great
portion of it is merely historical. But I do not know of a single Spiritualist, no, not one,
who does not believe in inspiration to-day and in olden tunes — that the ancient bards and
pn^hets and seers spd^e as the spirit gave them utterance ; that in the second dispensar
tion, Christ and his apostles were inspired. And when he sa}'s they disregard the
moral precepts, he has made a charge which ho is not able to prove. What do they
disregard ? Christ says, — Feed the hungry, and clothe the naked. If this chai^ ap<>
plies any more to Spiritualists than to the Christian world, I am unable to sec it. Why
are millions of dollars needlessly expended in decorating churches, in this city, while
hunger and poverty are pleading for aid ? In this city and other cities in America,
^re are thousands of wretched, poverty-stricken females, who are driven by poverty
till they are tempted to sell their virtue, in ordc^ to obtain bread to keep soul and body
together. Is it not true that millions of dollars dre thus needlessly expended by differ-
ent churches, in trying to outvie a neighboring church, in having a higher steeple, or in
having their seats more finely cushioned ? Check this needless expenditure, and go
out and feed the hungry and clothe the naked. I say this precept does not apply to
ns, more than to the Christian Church, or half as much. For those who conduct re-
ibrms, in every age, are generally poor, and have not the means to give, as they are o^
ten humble fishermen, and those who walk in lowly life. Christ directed us to do unto
others as we would that others should do unto us. Do you say that Spiritualists disobey
this precept more than others do ? I acknowledge, friends, that none of us live up to
ihe examples and teachings of Jesus Christ, as we should; and I would to Heaven tha^
every Spiritualist, and every one who is not a Spiritualist, would live in accordance!
irith those pure moral precepts. But when we are told to obey the doctrine of " an
eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth," I do not hesitate to declare that I consider it
any thing but good for moral beings ; it may do for the age of animalism, but it does not
accord with the law written within the soul of every morally developed being.

A few words, now, in regard to the statement that if it be true that spirits return and
ccunmunicate, they would introduce inventions, and make remarkable discoveries far
JUL Will m^brother say, here, that lie would really like to have it so, — would like
to have the spirits come and do all our thinking for us ? Mercy knows that the worid
has been employing men, for the last eighteen hundred years, to do their thinking for
them. I was talking with a friend, this aflemoon, in r^ard to this very subject.
He is not a believer in Spiritualism, but he said, — " I, for one, am glad that we are
left to work and dig out these things ourselves." All we ask of spirits is, merely to
point to where the mine of truth is to be found, and we will dig for ourselves, and en-
deavor to gather up these golden grsdns of beauty and truth, and treasure them up in good
and honest hearts. We do not wish them to do every thing for us, and leave us nothr
ing to do. He says, — '* Why do they not direct us in regard to the science of astron-
omy 7** Who shall say, good friends, that the mind of Galileo was not first inspired by
a spirit ? Who shall say that Columbus felt no extraordinary interior impression that
ihere was a western world ? who shall say that it was not sugge^d to him from the
invisible ? Who shall dare to say that the Father of his country, Greorge Washington,
iras not surrounded by an invisible body-guard, who inspired him with wisdom, with
great discretion, irith great judgment ? We are almost disposed to believe that there was
a Divine Providence overruling the great Washington. He had one of the most invin-

I<M piaev%BWK of spivituIlibm BsnfsEv

olde foes upon earlh ; and with » handful of meBf ha oonqoered at hit And have wa
not his own word, that he was oftentimes governed by impressions Ibr which he oenlil
iiot ac<»unt ? When no external reasons were pcesented to guide his choice, he waa
yet. led to take the comese which terminated in soceev. And did he netsax that whea
}m disregarded these strong impressions, he invarii^ly £sdled ? Who shall «ay thai thf
immortal Franklin did not help Professor Morse ? i have oonTersed inth geniuses, wilk
inventive spirits in the body, who have told me that they have been enlightened jiad
iheir powers unfolded hy the aid of spiritual beings, but not to such «n extent that k
* relieved them entirdiy, of all thought. I will agwn adMwer these questions, here^adung
af I did on a focmer oceastcm, — why does not the professor in a college woric o«t ikB
problem, or translate the Greek, for the stud^it ? The poor student would rust out ; kt
9MBld never unfold his faculties.

We have spent four evenings in discussing the first queeti<m« to which idone tins mat-
ter would have been pertinent Now, will my brother come to the question before ua 7

MR. GRIMBS.

That is a most extnio^linaiy inquiiy, when the gendeman ha. pot com. wiHiin a
thousand miles of the question.

Mb. MiLler. — I was obliged to follow yon on your argument

Mb. Grimes. — The gentleman says I do not speak to the question, when, supposing
this was the last evening, I drew up a r^vim^ of the whole, putting down, seriqjUm^
e^ery thing, whether his alignments or my answers : he caught lihat up } although he must
have known that the very proposition to sum up w^s made by him, and that that was my
answer. Then he launched upon the theological world. He brought up the BiblQ.
My fnend is a very good Christii^n, in one respect ; when he is in trouble, he takes
refbge in the Bible. If I say they do not make raps, they appeal to the Bible. Jf I
s^y that Mrs. Coan is a humbug, and they cannot show they ccmtrary, they get under
the Bible. If I depy that they can produce any qianife9tajtion8, they say I am an infide!|
and that all the Christians are infidels, and that ^y a^ the Christians. They invert things
most beautifully I They ought to publish a new dictionary. Tlie Christians are infidjelsy
and they Christians; and I am an j^theist, afkd injuring the cause of Christianity. The
gentleman's whole arguipent is fbll of the assertion that I am taking ii^fidel ground. My
j^ar friend, here, has been very ekxment ; be speaks ffiost fiuently and eloquently abont
ta^png infidel ground, and seems, to be really .alarmed lest I should become an infide^
while he is maintaining the doctrines of the Bible. And he wanjks to know to whi^
Spiritualist book or paper I wUl refer, to show thi^t the Spiritualists are opposed to tI|A
Bible. And before he got through, he made hinvs^lf a perfect Qxa^iple of what X
charged upon the Spiritualist?. I refer to him ^nd his speech ; I never h^ard more
xank infidelity in my life, as I understand it, and as aU the Christian churches
miderstand it, than I have heard fWxn my friend in the course of this debate. If an^
one should' ask me what the public mean by the word infidel^ or what aU Christians meaii[
by infidels — I do not mean any sect cal^ng themselves Cfrisfians, who pu\y be themselves
infidels — I should say it is thtk I do not speak of my friend, him^lf; I fp^ak of him
as a representative of Spiritualism ; I never saw him beS>re I saw him here ; I have Ih^
matt perfect respect for him ; I adipire him; I like l^m, individnaljy ; but as a rcpr^spn*.
t%tive of jSi^ritoi^ism, I do detect him i^ die eipbodiipQi^t of the worst doctrines that
t^ wQiid has ever heard| the inost dangerous to the morajs, the h^th, the reUgiooi
hopes and interests of n^n. Again I say,^ if, by any usq of language, at ^y time^ 1
•oem to be disreqpeelflil to hlm» my heart does not mean k.

}

IflO MUJUXB AHD VBOV. WUDEBS; ! Wt

YHk^ eaeii them BfmtatJM Let us look attbtmanomeiit NotWitlH

jrtwkding all the d^evaiuuM of the %»mlnalbfei, tbere are 10010 tiungi in which thej
ilgpnee. Thejr agcee in hating enmgelical Ghriflfeianity. Thej agrae in utterly repudif
Kfking ^ idea that they need the bbod of Gfariit at an atpniament, or in any way that
^y need the meioy of God for their ana. They agree in ^kt$L Their doctrine is,
AM^.evexy thing th«b ia done and ever waa done, £faak the begiuiing of eternity tffl
now, is the result of natural laws. Whether God made the laws or not, they donft
Jpiqw and dont care; they rather imply that God himaalf b sobject to the laws, just as
II10 ancient Pagana hekL I never hewd, any^nrhere In theb teaching, that God made
^ laws of nature, but that there are certain inezoiahle laEWi, idbove every thing, and
^f9i the sfHrits come here and play the pranks they si^ they do, in obedience to such a
UiW as that whicb makes snakes live and grow, the same which makaa grass grow, ih%
IHipe that made the rock roll away fiom the sepulchre, tiie same that made the son
Ctond stilL The gentleman says he believes that the transactions reeorded in the Bibla
feaUy took place.

M&. MixxEE dissented.

Mb. Gribces. — I state it as you did.

Mr. Miller. — I beOeve that most, the great majamty, of spirit-manifestations in
the Bible are genuine. But I am £ur firoin believing that i^B infinite God roDed that
lAf rock, weighing several tons — be the fame more or less, — the story of which my
brother ridictded. I am far from believing that the infinite God did stop this earth, rolling^
on its axis, from west to east, and cause it to go back tead^rees, in order to convincfqf
Hezekiah that he could get over a piu^ in the stomach ^nd live fifteen years longer ]; for ]
am sure that such a spiritHOoanifestatioi;! as tl^t — I have not ridiculed it, however, half
as badly as my brotiher did, — I believe that such a spirit-manifestation would be pro-
ductive of a ^ood deal of insanity. ' For —

Mr. Grimes. — Tou are going a little further than an e^bMUitjqn.

Mr. Miller. — Pardon me: I wish to ilatA that yeicgr few of os ooutd keep onr
EQindy balanced, if we ^uld go out and see the sun wfttg in the West. A great porv
tioa of the inhabitants of the e?rtf^ woulc| h^ve yeeni t})is pheejQiqatPiQfi, if it had eveic
occurred ; biit since we lave no conoborfijbiyj^. eyiflanee, frm <A^ MitiODa, that the
^ (lid tun^ bf^k in its course^ wf mu4t beUeye that diere ia a nimteviffetatioo 00
ii^dbexpolatipn. I do not .believe that Gqd evef #tpppi^ th? worl4*

Ms. Grimes* — The gentleman has sustained mf prbposition better flian I could.

Mr. Miller. — I did not ridicule the story of the ?big rgck."

MRp Gapfsa. — I am not a&aid of your ridannling any thing yen wish ta I believe
ill ^at ; I psac^i^ il, myselil Don't be afraid of asy being thin skinned. At the saaaa^
tjwe, I dp QQt ridicule the gontleman himself -r^f^y thing but that I charge ik% Spir»
ituj^ista witb not believing the Bibia He- rises and saya, to all intents and puipesesy-
t^t be b^ve9 eyery thing that agrees with his own qotions. When he comes to any
thing Ithat he Ainks God i^uld not do» acoordsng to ^ ideas, it is a mistake. Wfaea
h^ (!^9ie9 tfi ftoinfttbing tfc«t jnat fits his own notions, that is inspiiedi When the BiUa
"^t^ i^ iqispin^ jiwt aabe is, lA b kn^rad; ^adiian hadifieaa from him, it is a nnstakef
afifim that way he believes the BiUa. Why, what a Christian ha is I horn ML of grace I
ifjhpit a 9Qn of tbi$ dhurebl Hov, ^some Christians, in joining the Oinireh, am called ta^
iMJj^ a CGmfetsii»ti of &ath; and when tiue gentleman stands upi, he says^ — Your reV"
erenee, I believe the Bible just so far as it agrtiaaiwi& my notainaaii thillga) and aa ftir^

108 DISGXJH8IOK OF BPtRTCnALISX BBTWEBN

as I differ, it is miotakeiL. - I- fancy I see tiich a man joining tlie Chtnrch I He has '^t-
erftted, already, wbat Xfaid.aa to the doctrines of the SpiritaalistB generally. When I
say that the doctrines of the SpiritoaUsts are shocking, I can refer to what he has said.
Those doctrines are. shookiog. • Hiey shock the nerves <^ those we call Christians. Hift
TBst majority of the peo|db of tbis dty, men who are educated, men Who know more
tiian he or I, both, «b^ *ho are jost as capable of knowing what the Bible :meams Ibid
no siK^ mistakes^

Now, I wish to go a little fhrdier, and show what Spiritualists do believe. It is pei^
Ibotiy plain that they do not believe the Bible. They believe part of it, as they woold
of A novel. In the Waveriey Navels, we find a description of a scene : that, we beliorey
but when we come to Scotf a big stories, we do not believe diem. When the Bible des-
cribes people as eaisng, the gentleman thinks that is probable ; bat when it says thai
God) who made the world, stopped it fxa his own purpose, a moment, the gentlemaii
does not believe that Because ^ can't do diat, he does not believe that God did it.
When God does any thing that he cannot do, he does not particularly believe there k %
(jod. I heard a Spiritualist say, yesterday, '* he wouldn't mind worshipping God, if he
would behave himself" — and quite a number of Spiritualists joined in the hiu^

MSp; Miller. — Will you please to tell me who the Spiritualist was ?

Mr. iGrRiiffBS. — Mr. Jonies — a " very respectable man " — very I

I heard a Spiritualist lecture in Buffalo, — I cannot think of hb name, but he is tbe edi*
tor of one of your Spiritualist papers. I declare he was the best and most interestiD^
Spiritualist lecturer, — excepting the present company, — I ever heard. And he roM
before a large audience, — I think there were a thousand people there, — and, speaking
of Jesus Christ, said he did very well considering he was a young man ; and tbe audience
seemed to be quite pleased with it. And Christ was a Jew, and had prejudices againafc
Samaritans. Then he ridiculed the idea of imitating Christ He said that among
the savages, all the tribe imitate the great chief: and the Quakers imitate William
Penn, and if he wore a hroad-brimmed hat, they did the same : and the Israelites imi-
tated Moses, and they were all Moseses. And he ridiculed the idea of imitating Jesus.
And that man called hunself a S^Hritualist I have no doubt my friend, here, will give
you the same doctrine, and tell you that he has a great respect for Christ, and will be very
indignant if you do not think that he believes in the Bible. Surely, this point needs no
further explanation. When I say he does not believe in the Bible, when I say that he
treats the Christian religion outrageously, he himself reiterates what I mean. And he
knows, he knows well, that the feelings of all the Christians in the audience are hurt to
hear it What cares he for that?

Now, what is their doctrine ? There are sphrits all around, existing as mosquitos ex-
ist in swamps ; and they have an independent existence. Just as in the heats of An*
gost, the mosqmtos come oat and bite, just so, when the conditions are right, the spirHl
come oat; and many Spiritualists teach — I do not know that there is any exception—-
my impression is that the greater portion of the Spiritualists teach — that a vast mfyoritj
<^ the spirits around ns are evil spirits, that they come on purpose to deceive us, and take
delight in tormenting ns. They say that most of their spirits are lying spirits, and the^
oertainly illustrate that The Spuritualists that have had most experience teach — and
I refer to one gentleman whom I see before me now, who, in one of his books, — and
an able book it is, and if I could pick it out I would like to read from it — says that he
has no doubt, — that there are spirits here, but holds up his hands in warning, and
gives a warning against them |m evil spirits.

\

X.SO MILIite ANp ?&OF. GRI]f|»« IM -

Mb. Larot SxTNDEBLAND. — That k not qidte true,
'ifift. Grimes. — Please correct me, ar.

■ •■-■".

.)|[|^ StrxDEBLAKD.. — I do Qot choGMO to giv^ a leetore hcNu

'Ifo. Grimes.'^ Then yaa did not giVe the admonitioii ?

} . ■

iitL. Sundeblakd. — I di4 give the voice of warning, Imt aoi partiCHiJaiiy, beeaive
thuere are evil spirits.

.)fB. G&ucEs.— What did jroasaJF about h?

Mb. Sundeblanb. — I say there is danger in listening to revelations from the ior
visible world. *

MfL Grimes. — Well, that is what I meant' Beveladona from tin invisible world

are dangerous.

Mb- SuNDSBLAin> made a remark not oveiheard by the Reporter.

tllB. Grimes. — Well, never mind the name ; yon may call the reveUtiooB by wha^
ever name you please. Mr. Harris, who has renounced this modem Spiritualismy in
language of burning eloquence warns all to beware of its terrible consequences. Hie
peculiar notions Mr. Sunderland has on the subject, I did not name ; but the particular
point I am making here, is that the doctrines taught by the Spiritualists are so far firam
being Christian, they are absolutely heathenish, and worse. I defy you to show, in all
the annals of paganism, any thing half so demoralizing, dther in principles or practice)
as 'this modem Spiritualism. You may go to the ai^dent Greeksi to the I£ndoo6, yoa
may go to the annals of Sodom, and you wiQ find purity itself^ compared with the pcy
tute which Bev. Mr. Harris draws of modem Spiritualism. He a Christian ministery
too, a Swedenborg^ Christian.

MR. MTTiTiTIR.

Mr, Chairman^ Ladies^ and OenUemen: Beally, am I nustaken ?—
Mb. Grimes. — I guess you are.

« ■

Mb, Milleb. — Then I will ask the chainnun ta read the qnestioii for diacnwioin thia
evening and we will see.

Thx Chaibman read the question, as fi^ows: —

Can the various phenomena known as Spirit ManifeMtums he satisjbcionly and
phUosophkaUy accounted for without admitting the agency cf dqtarted human beings f

Mb. Milleb. — The very first point which my brother brings forward, is an inquiry
as to what are the Spritualist doctrines. I want to know if the point in discussion is,
the doctrines of Spiritualism, or its phenomena. Brother, I am not mistaken ; the mis-
take is on the other side of the house. Not one remote allusion has he made to this
question. Has he, in a fit of desperation, abandoned it? If so, let him stand up ami
say to the community, — I cannot meet this question. It is evident he cannot ; and he
u now avoiding, -^ artfully dodging it, — and begins to talk about something else.

ibL Grimes. — About the Bible.

Mb. Milleb. — That Ja not the iasae.

11» ' mscm^MW oif ifimfrvLhJk imfahem

Mb. Grimes. — Why did yoa begin k, then?

Mr. Miller. — I £d not begin an iMoe on the divine anthority of the Bible, or any
thing of the kind. I, in my remarks on the first evening, quoted from the BiUe, to
establish spirit intercourseyw^ I n^onld qoote firoai th4 writings of Socrates, Flatd^-or
John Wesley. I do not hentate to define my pontaon upon the Bible, where it becoMQi
a question, and it is necessary &r me to do it I believe, if I know my own soul, I love
trttklllbii^thttiith^i^idMitf 0^ tile worid; And when the gentleman attempts, here,
by pandering to your prejudice, to get up an ill feeling, he departs from the rides, ft'
does seem to me, of this debate, and from the question, entirely. The question; han^
to-night, is not of the ^oral tendencies of Spiritualism. Yet, I am willing to discuss that
qu>iyon at^ aii/ tithed wiilb any man' who will take the principles of Spiritualism on
which to reason, — not the acts of professed Spiritualists, for by this rule nothing would
stund I rftai, indesd, »mf to be obliged, hm; to Mow my brother outside of tlie
question.

Mr. Grimes. — Will jpouidlow melo intenrupt yon a moment, to Tefer you to a ponil
where you have made a mistake. Did I not speak of mesmerism, and go on to show
ho#1ti^sMriitt Iie!i66tthi»c( Ibr t Au&^sjpeakttig, and other of your manifestations ?

ibi. Miller. — 't'ou niight as well say they are caused by a man's <* ebeneser," as by
mesnieriAb. 1^ gentiieHsian has not told us what mesmerism is. He has told us thai
the infltiende (^ mind upon mind, independent of the senses, is a humbug; and he UMt
on^d'htknibug, -^ on the principle of sinuHa smiliiniSy — to neutralise another.

} slmil'iicftfolloiv ^e gentleman through all the random remarks he has made herei
brit'^tt (idnttnii^ to prdBent fhcts upon &cts, and occasionally reply to some of his n»-
suj^pdrted'aMHidhis.* I shaD — and he has draWn me into it — be obliged to reply to
some of tin aris^iftibkii^-ixi il^ard'to t(ie mbral tendencies of Spiritualism. I prefi»r j facm^
eve^, td'l^^feiratj tb'&iiii, fkctd) and I clesire him to give, according to the statement oC
Hie proposition, a satisfactory and philosophical explanation. I will offer presently, two
manifestations, — one of a phyneal nature, and the other of a mental nature.

But before doing so, since my brother Is constantly making quotations fix>m otherii
rince he tells us he has tieard-ftlecforer, id Buffalo, make ecirlsim deelanidoaii, isince he IdM
heard ^ Mr. Jones' " opinion, and quotes him as authority, allow me to say, I miglii
reasonably reject them, if his line of argument be a correct one, unless he will give Hie
beil evidenoe df whksh Ibe oaM aldttlt^ Th6' best etidencfe to afibrd, here, would bi§
to bring that lecturer forward, or a report of the objectionable speech which he made
in Buffala He ought not to ask us to take fab word alone. Wlrf, he has, here, witf^
out qualification or iiBason, accused nine-tenths of the mediums of being impostocii
There is an old sagging,- that M'-didioif^ pei^sdn thinks everybody elde dishonest I cab*
not botfceive how my hMtber aMives at 8dch concluttontf as' these, without reflecting
severely upon himsel£ But I am satisfied my brother does not mean yon te t9ke Us
stateffiehts in their fblf sense. Be has a hard questicm, and he finds it is neoessaly to
talk, aiid therefore fills up the time with these remarks, begging of yon, with his mktb-
fulness and playfbl manner, to take just about as much <^ it as you please.

He has divided off the manifestations, and there he has left them; he hasnot e^i^MitoA
dthei^ the one or the other class, first, fbr the manifistationrof a mental eharttetsr^
He iays he can do any thing that any honest medium can do. The tmth of it Is, all ba-
can do he will'admitl and all that he cannot do he will say isdbhonest He must makt
•very fact bend to his theory.

Mr. Grimes.--- I wiU do aU that your inediunawndb'iiiphbrei

LSa mLLSR AMD PROF. OSIifEflb- 111

lla« MiLL£B« — 'He aay do tbis by tiickery, by jugglary, he nay get up a very
fiuttifal cmmterleit; and yet the genuine not be ezpesedb He may produce all the ex-
temd appearanoies, and yet it it a mere counterfMt I have tten a man, on the Btage,
gtf through an exeelknt counterfeit of diiitiMm tremem. Now, that he ooukl ooun*
teatfeit the condition ofaniaA^edngdevib around him, does not show that there is not
a veal eonditioif in whix^h reason iiT dethroned. We have seen, on the stage, an as-
sumed character of Biehard the Thiid; and yet was thefe not a gjenuine Richard the
Hard ? I have seen a nuun^ upon the stage, go through with the struggles of death.
Does that disprove its reality ? L^t me say, in regard to eveiy effect in nature, phjrsi-
cal and spirituid, that certain conditions must be established before they ctta take place.
My brother seems willing to admit just so much of the phenomena as will come inside
the limits of his narrow theory ; the rest^. by an unwarrantable assumptbn, he de.
nooaoes as unmitigated imposttme. If I woald state thai I saw a artdinm sit down and
write a few Tertrcs, that hen* arm moved mystbHdusIy, he can j possibly, accmmt for this
by his science of mesmerism, and will, therefore, admit it to be true ; but go beyond thi8|
and the capacity of fiis theory suddenljr git^ oitt, ahd the StkuW which hi cateheil at
then b, the stcrcot^'ped cry of '^ Humbug and dishonesty ! " Mesmeriflkn is true, but it is
biit tfao a b 6 6f the great sdcmce of mind nmnin^ tfarcmgh' the Tttst empire of created
intelfigcticcs.

But, I will not dwell fhrthcr oil this subjoet; but will now Intrtxliiee, under the
head of what is called *' mental manifestations," an uceu rr fe nce wliich took place in tfact
village of Madison, Madison County, Kew York. In that village resides the family of
Mr. Carlton Uicis. 'tfacy were not Spfaitualists tilt after the Mowing occurrences took
place. Their daughtd*, one day, seemed to be sbgubrly affbcted. The village jdbyii^
C'ian, — I cannot now recolleet bis name, -^ was called in to exanune her case, as tiie
parents were somewhat alarmed at her condition. I will refer yon t6 any man in the
place, so Well known are the facts. While holdiiig a discussion there, latt fiil, I broaghif
fokward ascore of Witnesses,- Who knew the reliability of the commnnieadons through
this girl. Not one fkrthing haS eile, or any party concerned, ever received fw their
time and trouble. Tlicy called upon physicians to determine what Was th6 matter with
the girL The pAiyacians said it was some kind of nervous disease; Aey could not t^
eXflcdy what She acted sttangely and abstracteciSy. One day, she called fbr a peaefli
and wrote down the names of some twenty persons; and when! Mr. and Mrs. Biee
looked them over, they saw that many of these were names of their relatives, while
odiers were those of old acquaintances, who had been many years in the spirit-world ;
and more than half of them, they dec la red to me, their daughter had never heard o£l
From that time she began to speak ; she was always deeply entranced ; and on some
occasions, twenty or thirty spirits controlled her, in the space of an hour, giving their
names, residence, etc. ; and in every case where they have corresponded with the peiv
sons living in the localities named, the statements, through die girl, have invariably
proved to be correct. I have two cases of the correspondence between the parties.
The spirit, in one, said, '* My name is Augusta Jewett ; my husband's name is Wil-
liam D. Jewett ; we resided at South Berwick, Maine. Wo were married " at such a
timet and had so matiy children. " I passed into the qtirit-wmrld ** at such a time (gi^
ing-the date). *^ Address a letter to my husband, William D. Jewett, of South Berwicky
Maine, and you will get an answer.*' Mr. Clink, a brother-in4aw of l^Ir. Rice, acc<M!d-
ingly sat down and wrote a letter. Ho put inquiries to Mr. J., in the shape of several
interrogatories, withoot assignti^ any very-definite reason for askii^ the questions. Hie
asked him if hd had a wile named Augusta Jewett, if she was married to him at such a

lis i DISCUSSION OF SPnUTUALISM BBTWBBK

tune, and died at such a time, had bo many children, etc As they did not know there
was such a place as South Berwick, they went to the Post Office Directory and found
it Mr. Jewett wrote to the postmaster at Madison, before replymg, to know the char-
acter of Mr. Clink j so singular was the receipt of such a letter. The postmaster replied
that Mr. C. had been county clerk, for some time, was higlily respected, and was now
an honorable member of the l^;al profession. Hien Mr. Jewett answered the inquiries
by saying*: ** Nearly all the questions you have asked, I answer in the affirmative. There
are some things wrong, however ; but so far as her name was concerned, the descrip-
tions of herself, the time of her decease and marriage, they are all correct On another
occasion, a spirit said, —

"lamtheepiritofEminaStxtoii My inaldBn name wba Emma Stepbens. My fltiher^ name Is 0. 8. Stepb*
•ni. Ity mother's nanw Is Matilda BteplMiifl. I died in Clinton, Lenawe Co., 3ficli||an. I was married to Ifr.
Sexton the Ist of MbtcIi, 1848, and died the 16th of the same month, and year, haTing seareely lived oat Cbi
honaymoon. Address a letter to my hnsband, Dwight Sexton, who is now living at Clinion, Lenawe Co., mehp
igaa, and is yet unmarried.''

On being inquired of if her husband was a farmer, she replied: —

^ No, he is a villager."

Hie family did not know, in this case, that there was such a place as Clinton in Michi-
gan. But Mr. C. wrote his letter according to the directions of the intelligence. He put
the letter in the shape of six interrogatories, and to all those questions he received an
affirmative answer, — *^ Yes," says Mr. Sexton ; " but why do you ask these questions of
astranger?"

Now, this comes under the head of menial manifestations. It cannot bo very ac-
commodating. Facts are not accommodating. They will not bend to any theory.
They are as fixed as the Infinite, himself. I would like to accommodate my brother,
but facts cannot yield. As it will not accommodate itself to his little theory, of
course, he will say it is humbug, and the parties deceivers. Such wilfulness and al>>
surdity reminds me of the eccentric Irishman, who had built up a darHng theory, regard-
less of &cts ; it was the idol of his heart, he r^oiced over it, he drank over it, he sang
over it. But, said the logical Frenchman to him, ** Here are facts ; the theory is against
them ; it cannot be true." '* Well, bad luck to the facts, then," said the Irishman ; *' the
facts must go by the board ; my darling theory will stand." This is my brother's ground
precisely. If the facts will acconunodate themselves to his a-b-c science a£ mesmerism,
it is all right ; if they do not, he denies the facts.

MR. GRZMEB.

I should like, Mr. Chairman, to ask who has so much reason to say ** bad luck
to the facts," as the genUeman himself. He does not like assertions; and he has
told you, a great many times, that I do not touch the point ; and he thinks he gives
facts, and not any assertions. Will you all remember that every &ct, as he calls it,
which he has introduced, he has proved, abscdutely proved I

Mb. Miller. — Ilavo I any proof of it, do you say ?

Mb. Grimes. — I say you kwe proof of the facts you have brought fbrward. The gei^
tieman has proved them. Shall I tell you how ? By assertions. He has got a tremendous
pyramid of facts, all resting upon assertions and nothing else. Ho has got raps, tre-
mendous raps, that will convince anybody, and are proved by assertions! Not a rap
can bo produced, — yes, they did produce some — a committee went and heard some — -
but they didn't look to see where they came from. That is, they asserted it And that

tue uvLhfm jam- pboh mmaem* lit

yery medium that made theie n^ kin tbe eomUmiliabk of making them, in pnblie,
411 over tbe conntay. And wjb^n we ask for fiKsts, the/ gire ns aasertions. Tables
IRV0«n9, and piaDoa rite aild ]NBip4itgainitt]ieirail; — that ii a ftct, yoa know, I will »qI
ctaHyfliBt How doei ihe gentknan establiih that? By Ins anertion ; and then tana
ttmndy and laya I make aasertaons. Whj, my deai^fiiends, have you sense and reason T
and da joa notice that? Am I awake, or am I not? What do yon call this that I an
doing now? These wondetffiil fiiets are actoaliy taking place, and they aie pnnrinjgf
them fay assertions 1 If yon went into coftt, and had a case 5f an old horse not worth
fire dollars^ no comt in Uie worid would decide the case against yoo, on that evidence.
And yet, my friend sayswe are not going to be held down to die technicalities of coorts.
Tins is a free comitry. We are going to be free — ''Take &ctB, bat we are not
going to bring them into court" We hare a letter from somebody, — Mr. Jones, I be-
lieye> — - of Madi a on Oomly; — if yon don't believe the story, yon can go and find oot all
about the man. Them are facts f It is a ''fiust,'* too, that mental questions are an*
dwered, sealed up ih envelopes, there being no chance to open them — it is &irly
done. But that is not going to be proved by assertion. He is sick of that I wiJOl
daxMe three men. He will not have my three; that will not do. The three men
Aall present the names I write in the envelopes, and try the experiment. " Stop;
I want three of my friends to accompany them." They get there, and present
the envelopes. There is no answer* ^^ Well, that is a mistake." Some things are dQii»
to which I did not consent, which were not my experiments, but done upon the author*
ily of Ae individuals themselves ; and the Spiritualists try to make them amount to
something. I turn anoimd, and say, — If you can do it in that way, if there ia a mis*
take about it, if the medium cannot do as you state, bat can do it in this way, I wili
submit to that : here, or there, or anywhere you please to go, in this world. 1 will go^
and roU up the ballots, in the way her own conditions require; and if she will
answer them, as they claim, I will never say another word against Spiritaalinu I
say Mrs.'Coan cannot answer one mental question. You shall have every thing but.
a.cha|ice to cheat, and that I will not give yoiL I want to know if I amdealii^in jfocti,
or juati. 1 will submit to any thing — if you do not get me where you can hart me, por-
(ioolarly-*- any thing 6lse in the world, that you want, for conditions, I will ghe you.

When I spoke of mesmerism, and said some of your manifestations could be accoanted
Stat thai, yoo will ramembar there was a very vague, general sneer, that I said I thong^
mesmerism was a humbug. I say the phenomena of mesmerism are, every one of diem,
produced by making impressions on tiie imagination. I have mesmerized, perhaps, as
mooh as any man living ; and I know, therefore, what I say, when I say that every one
of the phenomena of mesmerim is produced by imagination. You can make a man%
mlfti powerless, you can make him speak, and go to sleep and dream. And what they
caU ** hiolqgy," and ^* p^fchoLogy," is a pretence. It is ail a mistake ; and mesmerism is
a4More simple thing than Ihey attempt to make it appear. Ido not stand here to make
fl Sie i l jou s. I am ready, if there is a proper occasion, to substantiate all that I may say,
qa this point

But ^^/acts " is the word. I have but litde time, and I wish to read a communicatioD.
We-had afact stated, in a paper hi r^ard to a certain occurrence sud to have taken place
hi tins city ; and I did not believe it; and my friend says I rejected it because it was
not aooording to my theory. This paper I hxM in my hand relates to some of your ex-
j^ariments with Mr. Squire. I received it, to<hiy, a gentleman whom I well know, ana
of the ntoBt respectable scientific j;entlemen in ^^ city.

8

114 DisouBSioir OF HpnunriTAiisx Bvnnxx

" THB KCFIBIMKirTfl OV KB: SQUIBB.

"Pxomnom Gaons,— fiEr: Mr. MlUer iMd a maniueript paper taat night (Vricbj, Ifueh 9) In proofflf'
flpfritiMJiim, whldi eoiMbted of an aooofimt of Mine of thepfayrieal eig^aEtanentiorMr. Bqoire. Ilbdne-ftt
the public that Mine xemarlu or orittdemsBlioQld be »ide In xeCBvenee to tlMt Ifr. Sqntae vaa m rmr.

prominent medium in Boston, a few yean ago, and wee xefened to bj the Spiritualists as one who was |J>naf
dantly capable of remoring the scepticism of all unbelievers in Spiritualism. Thus, lie was Tlsited bj h undre d s,
If not thousands, of our Intelligent citiMus, who were anxious to have some ertitonoe, if an j eould be i^lnen, ef *
the truth of Spixituelism. Mr. Squire was the gneet of Mr. Fezzac, of this eity, one of our most napegMaikt
eitlsens, who generously opened his house to the pu^|]y|^ and granted to CTery 4me, so fiir as I know, a^i op-
portunity of witnessing the performances of Mr. Squire without any charge far admission. This proved tilt
sincerity as well as enthuidasm of Mr. Fkrrer, who, I em sure, would not wflfally decetre any one.

" I ciJlbdea a stranger, to witness the manifestations of Mr. Squire, and was admitted. Iwas sboimliito
a room up-stairs, with several other visitors. The room contained a bed, a table, chairs, and other fturaitulii

^* The experiments, we were told, would belperformed in the dark. The spirits were unable to do »aj tU^g
in the light.

*' In the first experiment Mr. Sqube took his seat upon the bed. The table, which was eiieular,
plaoed before him. He said the spirits would throw the table over his he^ upon the bed. The room waal
made dark. He gave me his right hand to hcdd, so that I might be assured he was pasidTe, and makii^ no mm-
eular eflforts to more the table. Presently, a cracking sound was heard in the daxk. ro(»n, as if the table waa
mofing. Mr. Squire, who was in the habit of making humorous mnarks during his experiments, said — * flhan
it goes ~I feel it sliding overmy noee.* In another moment, there wasa heavy sound, aslf thetablehadfelkii.
The Ught was restored, and, sure enough, there was the tabic, upside down, upon the bed. I should, not ham
known, by holding the hand of Mr. Squire that he mode any muscular eflfort.

"I said to Mr. Squire, and those present ~ * I think the spirits will assist me in perferming that experi-
Bant.* Nool^ieetioa>waamade,andltookmyseatuponthebed, withthe taUe befereme. I reqneatad tlia
room to be darkened. I gave Mr. Squire my right hand to hold, ia imitation of tlie method he had purmod
himself, I seized the farther edge of the table with my left hand and found it an easy matter to bring tlie top
or upper surftce in contact with my knees; then, with a little manipulaiting, I was enabled to pass it upward
over my feoe, and I felt the table, as Mr. Squire had expressed it, sliding over my nose. Whatever muBcnailar
exertions I made, I took care that they should not be communicated to my rl^t hand, which was held pas-
sively by Mr. Squire.

*' AUother moment, and I was enabled to throw the table over upon the bed. I called for the light, wUkii
was restored. There was tlie table upon the bed, as every one saw, but not a word was said, by any onto ;
ent, as to the nature of the experiment.

** Mr. Squire then proceeded to perform the wateh experimtnty which was detailed in the paper of last i
ing. Tbit watch was placed in his hand, and his hand enveloped with handkerchieft, securely tied andloioi-
ted. He said that the spirits would remove the watch from its place of confinement, which, to aD ]preiaBt^
eeemed to be quite imposrible. Mr. Squire, thus prepared, took his seat, witii the rest of us, around tha taUi,
he having his hands under the table. The room was darkened. Mr. Squire called iqwn tiie spirits to zmmhto
the watch, as he had promised, and amused us with bis witty remarks, for he was a very social and pleaian*
young gentleman. In the coarse of five or ten minutes he called for the Ught, and the watch was found upon a
ledge Just under the top of the table. Every one seemed to be lost In wonder. In consequence of this appaNii^f
Ineredible manifestation. ^

" I said,— *• With the permisrion of the spirits, I will endeavor to perform this experiment also.* Tbm
watch, accordingly, was placed in my hand, which was enveloped in handkefchiefii tied and knotted In fba
most secure and unquestioaable manner. No l^ptian mummy was ever more Ui^tly swathed than waa vqr
httd on that ooeasion. I concluded In my own mind that the spirits would never succeed In extricating tha -
watch. Under these circumstances, I took my seat, with the rest of the company, at the table, and ordeied
the light to be shut out, for my apirits were as averse to the light as those of Mr. Sqw're. 1 laegfok to twist
and work my fingers in every possible way, and in the course of five minutes, I fbund, greatly to my turprlsa,
that I had extricated tha watch firom its multitudinous envelopes, and pladogit upon the ledge undirtlie table,
I called for the li|^t. I had the credit of a very successfhl manifestation, and for aught I know, it wat
sldered in every way equal to that of Mr. Squire.

** Another experiment was this : Mr. Squire seated himself upon a chair, on the opposite side ef the :
from the bed, a distance, perhaps, of twelve or fifteen feet. The table, which was quite heavy, was placed ba-
fixe him. He said the spiiits would throw the table across the room upon the bed, and this I knew waaafeat
which he could not accomplish by physical strength alone. I was satisfied that liis manifestations, tiiua fer,
had been the result of deception and Jugglery, and concluded, in my own mind, that he would perfinm the ex-
periment now proposed, by approaching the bed suflleiently near to enable him to throw the table tinm. hit
hands. . This he eould do in a dork room, without being observed. Accordingly, I propoted to take hia haaA
■during this experiment, or at least to bo in contact with his person, for in that case I knew that* fat could ntl
move without my being aware of it. But he replied, at once, that the spirits would not allow of any conltti
-•trith his person. It will be noticed, however, that in tlie first experiment, when-the table was thrown over hii

ijto lOLvtR Aim'PBdT'. tamss. ' il5

]w*d «9QB «ht btd, tiM fiMli •]kmAvA> btidhis lifju
]|birti7 MWMd to he wliflNj out of tbeqiMittoa..

'* lb. Squin took hia Msal upon tbe ehiir, to wUdh h* wm tied, and th* room iMde ii|vk. Jtrj foon iPt
iMttd the smmd of the tfeble flJ^ng upon the bed. the U^^t wm reftored/aiid thus tbe experiment eoded..

«( nie chair had eridently bem eo a^joBted to hie person as not to embarrass him in liis B&O'VCBitots. HaA
hs aUomd me to be In eoalMl iF^h-his peisqD« h* nenr iroold haT<»i^van iia the * adoUkttaHLaai* aad why
1m iceftued this contact, mnst be appaient to etery rnqprcijadioed person present.

" I did w>( propose to repeat this experiment, although I eonld ham performed it qq}te as easilyy with the
nsm darinaed, IM tbe two others wUeh I have Jvst narrated.

** These experimenli w neg s p sa ted ofw aad eirer again, in the prese n ee of hnndrsds of people. Wotmuof
nonths ttiey were the town talk. Many of my IHends, whom I ngaided not only as iBteUigapt, but critic^
beOeved in tlie experiments or * nmniftstations/ and became willing conTerts to SplritnaUsm.; For Biy own
yuCjIMtthatfh^y were a gross imporftiOB upon flie public, and but Ibr the Act that I was admitted to see
Ibam thioo^x tlw iDOortaqr of Mr. VknBar,or ttiase of his honsehiM representlnff him, I would hato done what
I could toexpoee them, in a newspaper article. Sefexal years liaTing el^^sed, I was astohiihed, lasl nJi^t, to
hear an allusion to those experimenta as furnishing any proof of Spiritualism.

" I will my that I am a soeptle in SpiritnaUsm, althouf^, I beliere, an honest one. I have been diligently
■wiring fbr maalfestatioiis fbr many yeaxi, but hafo nefw Ibtmd any thing to satisfy my Judgment. I beUeto
In the ftill and perftot slnoarity of many of the Bpiritualists. I hairo thought that sone of the * physleal
naidftstations' so constantly spoken of by my spiritual DriendB, mi|^t readily haye taken place, but I shall
hB more carefal thKn erer, how I recdre an alleged Act on the SpiritualisUc philoeqthy.

^ I am unwilHng to 1*to my name-Bude publlo, in tUs communication, even if it wen of any oonsequenoe.
nnerthelssB, youareat liberty to make it known to Mr. Miller or Ihr. Gardner, neither of wlMm, I am sura,
will have any desire to go contraxy to my wishes."

Mb. Fasrab. — Wfll the genfleman permit me to intermpt Mm one moment?
There are two miflrepreBentstions in the statement.

Mb. Gbixbs. — I diall hare finished in a moment I know the gentleman verjr well,
who wrote the communication ; but he tidd he did tiot wish to be broi%ht ont publicly
in this matter. But he sat here and heard the former statement, and it seemed to joro-
duce an erroneous impression. He felt that he ou^it, in jusdoe, to make this statement^
and I asked him, when he mentioned it, that it should be in writing, in order that there
nu^t be iio misoDdflritandiBg. -

. ■ *

Mb. Fabbab was permitted to speak, by permission of Mr. Miller.

Mb; Fabbab.' — Will yon be kind enough to; ^ye me the name <^ the genttemaA
who fhmished that cnmmuTiioatioo ?

Mb. Gbimes. — I am only at liberty to giTe it to Mr. Miller and Dr. Gardner.
They can'fiurnish it if tiiey pleaae.

Mb. Fabbab. — There are so many misrepresentations —

Mb. Gbimes. — From my' knowledge of the gentleman, I am sure he did not mean
to misrepresent ;..:■'/;

Mb. Fabbab. — If it be the genttenutn I ha?^' in my mind, perhaps th^rea^jtflreaaons
why he could not remember all that took place. I shall give-no name.. ■ - ' '^

Mb. Gbimes. — Dr. Gardner and "ib. Miller . ce& receiYe the Bame from me, imd
n my power is ended.

die

Mb. Milleb.;— The public,.an^ the audience, want the best evidence; the,seoaii4is
good m nodimg, yod say.-

Mb. Fabbab. — I know of l^li one gentleman — I might call him so — wli<> erer -at>
tempted to make thi^ experiment' iof throwing 'a tat>le over his head. That gentleinan
did.qotdoitwitl^:iheU||^ahateff; itwasiiitlielii^'aud not in darknen. It wm

116 DIsqimUjMr 0|R ^Wg9^4^fH HBBPilVlSKN

It^mm«iiuuuiereotireljr4iim«t flfrhw Tm A prmctod it ttt Jvfhigttat Vk
hand did not exhibit muscular effort He agrees that Mr. ^t^ dM tidt ; but .'all '^k^p^fieA
thatlfii did. - He said, io turn it oft^ thi^^tW spints w6aid|^Vtt lum a Ci^ kporp pcm>*
lioethi^.woulddoit

Aaoihervwdfrnregaidtotliec^pMu^efilie^fliteife Tbat^NFteiteter dofqieift dioi}^
n^ but always in light Another ^t {s i^ the irtAch iraai not cqncealed ; k ma
always in nght I used a watch that I carried* I^ WMt impended from hia aiddls
fin^r by a chain shout tax inches in length, the hand bandaged wttft two, and aoine-
tii^ tln^ iandA^erehi^ Once, I Maied Ms hand Up ip paj^r (. and yet ttAt ^iffSfiT^
iras opened. The ctip covering the wcnrks was. dropped o^ tbe flpor^ Hiat baa Ima^
done a hundred times, undiar tibe like civouBBtanees. It has hotsa done inth'anitlien on
his hand, with a hole ibt the chain. It was ^ne tinder iStte tUXAe, I ^d hot speak of,
the results which other people had seerii, bdt I spcko of what: VQ[ e^ep w^tnessiuL X lat
apart from the circle, on the ocoasicai t^ wbioh X refer, and.aaw tiM ^and, tirrapped, aiik
waai, m a handkerchief, and the wateh plainly in a^^ as Well asUil toUld: AJ^ a vwjr
few momenta, die watch slowly Tose, irithout any apparent ooAtact . It may. be bjmA
that I w«|s. psy^holo^zed ; — perbap^^ sir, I don't ac^e yo^ r-rbutr I think Ida. I saw
that walch dse, as plainly as ever.I saw jmy tfaii^; I saw it rise oat of Inght behitid tfi6
frame of the table ; it was gone, half a moment, it thenfbll, and, at the same iame, the
oap cpyerii^ the works.fell on the jkxxr. The eveaiag thej^f nffafltom was thefi, it likas
done the same way. The watch was not placed in Ae <haindi|i|pdb<wuwL

Mk. Gituuss. — It seems to me the gendexiMn has #iTe«.:4 iil&ient oaBttAdifliS6n.
I snppoqe you lu^T^ oontradkted the s^temeot.

Mb. Fakkab. — I contradict the stateitieik I bfilieve fhe ih&ig waa never ddni^
otberwiae, in my boose. Iknbwnotibiiig€fit,H'Uirlia.

Db. Mattson. — I was the person. It was in the aftqqMdD* JMl'thft- taeMnf^ Xds
were not present

Mst GrBncBa. — Dr. Mi^ttson reaid^ in Sumner l^tffifetiJ^Ob ^ He.sai41ielioiied
his iiUnd #ouId not be brought out ; but if it was abaolpt^ flC|(ee«gwy>ap:^4 ^tegTi^y^iwil
the thing too &r, he was ready to give it

. Mb. Fabbab. — ITo Dr. MattsonJ] Were yon liftl. |M|OWN»> 0tt
when this was performed, in the evening ?

Db. Mattson. — Only once, and that in the aftemooi^.

:■ ■ ■ ■»■■■-■ "i ■ . ' • -

Mb. Fabbab. -r- 1 can bring many witnesses who can aay you were. .

Mb. Fabbab.— I aa not

Bb. MAi«io».-^Wteze«reyowwilSBem t

Mb. Fabbab. — I can bring them, sir.

Bb. MATTsonr.— >tf yon can, it is a great mair?el| nry«-gjjiQ|ICHr thifk.ii^I,'!!!^

■ * •

Mb. mffLTilBH. — tf; my h^ Aft dnf>^ la nTMJjffr PTy»^b^iV;^;jilT|Jl fafjnfflK^ ?

whli Doctor Mattson ii pablic and not private. Hn msj b» iiiwm V^tud 'cilMtili>iIt

!!«■%)( bo aigteatliaiB^lbrdl I Kbov. He is m rtry imp&ctMe iim^iKmKa,'§o ftr a|
I irinrtpv end, I loioirf • wj ■awftifib'ge^

'!Hbc FAftBAX. — ih". IStttMn was nitf the' gdkiifeman I refoited to; X^s^iiaMte.liiiii.
BtEit lie was4it my lioiiae more thin onoe.

m

liLft.FAaRAB.-rWeU,th4tif ivqo^oo. '.

. jiUu GBimt.-1-I have niftt ithii gpn towaiii ponewhttki yKifapriniiplly, bp^ l|ii pnpn^
chanMiter wuit wond I know nothiBtf tiWiiit-

Db. Mattson. — I piesmne mj character has nothing to do with this question.

Mb. Fabbab. — Are jTou conect in lizard to the holding of thefooteftinhbhand?

iMt. SLkT4il<»r.---11ie*watth was wraf^ped op Vetyeareftiily; I betiere it ttHten
Wtti used, which I haVe iiot itaentioned in that oommnnication. The watch was w rapp e d
in tiie hand, and the handkerchief furer it, and the mitten over the handkerchief; the
oliject was to take the wvteh ftoin the hand; and it was placed on a ledge under the
tMe.

iin.. Fabbab. — That was. an experiment that I never saw Mr. Squire pertbnnu He
most have done it for your eapecuil benefit, as you alone were present

!Db. MAtTfloar. — Hediditonthataftemooii. *

Mb. GBiitBS. — Dd^ Dr. Mattson say there were no other persons present but
himself?

Db. MATxaox-^T- Then were SIX or eigbi present.

•Mb. Fabbabw— Do yon r^eofleist any ?

Db. MATTaoN. — AH .were strangers, some ladies and some gentlemen.

Mb. FtABBAA^--i-Atthetlnwyda were there, there were two ladies visitiagm^^
the country. I can bring the testimony.

Db. Mattsok. — It may possibly have been in the evening. I was there bat cooe.

nkl FabbabI — I kiAOw yon iv(sre present in the evening.

Db. Matt^qk. — I am confident, mt^

Mb. Fabbab.-^ That was not thoespeiiment to whidi I re&rxed. Onlytiie^oinig
the watch in the hand, or extrieatmg the wateh iSram tiie hand, was qioken o£ The
doctor speaks of the light being shut off, in the afternoon. Yet it was in the dad:, that
this thing was perfcmned ! It never was done in darkness.

Db. Mattson. — I am safe it was in Ae afternoon; fiyr tlie windowawnre iioted,
andthftUght was shuft om^ in that way. Wore you in tibue habit of esftevimentiBg^iii the
aftaisi#on.?

Mb. FABBAltl-^lffclt dftNi, nr.

Mb. Mattbost. — But sometimes?

Mb. Fabbab. -^ Well, I may say it has been done. My house was open ftr all who
lu(0 adesire to esanine'the matter. I never fUt lagoted, on the subject, that ^bk wav
tba-HMkof i^filiits,aBddonotiiow. lamepentoeonvietionfromaayeaei lonened.

lis '■ DiscuBiioir or snBiTUALmc ibstwsbk

my lioiiBe lor eveiy phase of imiid to come in ahid ezamihe ithe-iabjaiit. I ixnriied jiliyw
dciana; and even the Harvard profesBon came. P ro fe ei o i Fekoii treated: nie with l4e
utmoat courteaj, ao4} I ;ain hapjpjr to mj, I retfun his acquaintanpe still, and we ogAqh
meet, in good feeling.

/•-.I

Dr.Matt80N. — I do not imderstuid . tiiat I am accused c^ nuddng any miaepre-
sentation.

Mr. Fabrab. — Oh, no, sir, except in this — bat I don't say that in that you mi»>
re p resen t in' rielatida to that afternoon yon were there ; -^ I ^on't know but it m^t
been perfimned the other times. I know that was not the way It was-usoaQy done.

. . MR. MXLX

I shall claim, here, afew moments,^ my brother is willing. I wtth the parties to setde
that quesdon, and then we will looj^ to thb gentleman's letter. I shall not occupy tiha
attentkfn of the audience, a great while.. I wish to qpeak of this particular case. I ask
my brother — as, peihaps, it belongs more properly for me to discuss the point here— -
what possible relation this negative testimony, which has been introduced to-night,, has
to ti^e fact that was offered on yesterday evening. Let us examine it. Last evenix^,
I presented a fact, — gave my informant's statement, s^ ho had given it, in writihg.
And the fiust was this, that while Mr. Farrar and Mr. Squire were* together around the
table, a pencil rolled off Ihe table, and was thrown back. Mr. Fam-ar took that pendl
and put it on the floor agun, and it came back ; and he asked Mr., ^uire if he did«k.
'^ No," was the answer. He then put private marks on the pencil, and laid it upon the
floor as before. He then held Mr. Squire's hands in his, placed his feet on Mr. SquireVi
feet, and again that pencil came up on the' table as before. This- experiment was re-
peated several times. Mr. Squire could not possibly use his feet, without drawing thttn
around in such a way as to be observed by Mr. Farrar. He could not get the pencil
between hb toes, as he wore boots. Thb prevented all possibility of fraud. Here is a
£3^ by it8el£ Now does my brother expect to introduce, here^ sokne other fiulure, to
render nugatory a positive fact ?

M|u Gbimjcs.,— No, na

Mr. Miller. — He acknowledges the fiust, then. . One failure -never renders ^^V^
tory a i)ositive experiment I went into a daguerreotypbf s establbhment, and the ope-
rator tried all day to get my picture, and had to give it up. A thousand fiulures do
not 9M6et4m9 positive fact The doctor has written, peihaps, what he believes to Jbe
tme» ' But the other &ct stands there, immovable as the Bock (^ Ages.

Mr. Grimes. — They are both true ?

Mr. Miller. — They may both be true. It b a truth that I did not get my picture
talbn, with tlTing all day. It b t^ftKt that pictures are taken.

-Agaiiit fliybfoCher lakes occasion to speak of^he report of- that inviBstigatioii, yester-
day. There b one thing in that investigation, for which he can never account I am,
myself, really glad I proposed the investigation, as it shall go , before the world and
thousands shall read that six men wrote names in ballots, and, while writing, held the
paper up before their faces in a manner to completely hide the pencil from the medium,
avi yeVahe read names Drool those ballots, Suck was the &ct, and hii own witeeMes wHl
testify todt Unless a man was a ver}" awkward Irriter indeed, he would hold the tdp
of the pencil down in writing, iaiid the medium codd not» of oourae, aee its vieveiiieiitib

LXO XILLEB AND PBOF. OSnCXB.

119

Further, nx of tbose witnesfles wrote names on pieces of paper, and then rolled them up
into pellets so that thirty or more were found, all looking alike. Now, suppose Mrs.
Coan had seen the top of the pencil, and knew by its motion that ^\ Mary Collins ** was
written out : the papers were rolled up, and the pellets were each like the others, and
all tiirown together upon tiie table. Will my brother tell us how she could point lo a
particular balbt, and aayj^ that k the one oontainU^ the name of Mary Cdlins?'' He
cannot tell us. The gentleman, who wrote it, himself, did not know which pellet it

The audience and my brother wSl now excuse me from speaking further ; for I have
to speak here to-nunrrow afternoon and evening, and am in need of , all the rest I can
get I shall be pleased to see my brother present, then ; as I shall touch somewhat
iq;>on his favorite science of phrenology to illustrate my argument, introducing it to
pvofve the fiict of a New Dispensation at hand. In the evening, by request, I shall ^eak
vpon Apparent Evil and Positive Good, or the doctrine that *' All's well that ends welL*
I leave the tubjeet here.

I have no dii^KMhiaii to ooenpy time. The ftct that I wrote as I did, and received
no answer, telis its own story. And then, in r^;ard to my friend's remark as to Mrs.
Coan proving so much by her reading of the other writing. I have an individual
present who can do all that Mrs. Coan can do; and if you will bring her out, I will
the man, and yoa can see which will do best, at any time yon please.

Mb. Milleb.— I beg to state, here, in regard to the gentleman whom my brother
bu with him, — '

■

Mr. Gbucbs. — Oh, I have no gentleman witk me.

Mb. Millbb. — As to the gentleman, then, who is so ready to imitate: — I reply
that there is nothing bnt can be seeminglv counterfeited. The individual you refer to,
as I know, seems vacillating between two parties^ and hardly knows where he standa
He ean imitate, no doubt, many of the manifestations, and so can I, but it is anodrar
iStang to have the genuine. And I am willing to show up all the deceptbn possible.
Butthere is the fkit, that diese gentlemen wrote those ballots, as has been explained,
and they were mixed op on the table, and Mrs. Coaa read them. Tour imitator can
never do it onder sndb encmastanoea

\

1 1 ■

.-»

SEVENTH EVENINO.

MOKDAT, MARCH 12TB.

After a wgrd of recapitulatiob of his eonive of ai^gument on tfie precteding eTraia^
pvQceedod to read the taXLomiog paper : —

The phenomena of modem Spiritoalism may be divided into th«i6 that depaiA
upon mesmerism and those which are produced by imposition.

The reason why mesmerism is a means of misleading such a vast number of people,
M diat the theories er explanatpons of mesmerism have been so fnttmm^

Mesmerism is so called fromMeMiicr» who attribotod the effetjts to > fleid, «r laiiwil
magnetism^ which proceeded irom his body, and especially froai )us hand, to tkm hqiim
of his subjects. This theory was repudiated by the report ef Fiwaklin, aad tJbe#4lHr
members of the French Ck>mml8sion, appointed by the 'kio^ to iavesti^gayte the mattfiw
The theory is, however, still adhered to by most mesmerizers. Franklin, and the CgoH
nMon, attribute the effl^ets to the im^tiatida; &ad this, t have no doubt, is cennpcfli^:
aa^ in my work on Human Katare and The Nerves, I have explained the manner in
which the imagination is operated «poB. Mettieftei fM btontae popi^, in iiig
cgantry, in 1837, in consequence of the experimeiUs «f Mr. ifartthorq^ tod BbvwII^.
Bonneville. Hartshorn also practised clairvogrance« or the art of seeing withmA Ihg
ejresv through the tcp of the head or through the side. .Vm win ftsposed, sad tNii
suipposed to be exploded by Mr. Dmrant, in a small bookf poUiabed in reply to a fta^
pUel by Col Stone of the N, V. CammrcM Aio€rlim* The belief in ehw^oywM
still continued, however, and is now ahpost nnivenai I co» lb fl l thai I have long itp^
posed it to be true, in some peculiar oases { bft it is dn^ to caadbr io say, ihat titfu^jh
I have diligently endeavored, for several years past, to i«d a irf>Tfl)|T '■nhmbtni omi flf ■
clairvoyance, I have been unsuccessful, and I consequently begin to doubt it alto-
gether.

The Baron Beichenbach of Grermany, has published an account of his experimenti
upon what he calls oef, or odylic force, which is but another name for the mesmeric floid.
His experiments and reasonings in favor of a species of clairvoyance, appear plausible,
and to those who are not thoroughly acquainted with the subject, may be ccmviadng,
but I am confident that they only prove that many nervous and sickly persons have
active imaginations, and that the baron, as well as his scientific translator, is very
credulons. The Bev. Mr. Mahan, in his work against Spiritnalism, supposes that he
has explained many of its phenomena by clairvo3rance. lEI»*«Mke this explanatm
effective, he should have first demonstrated clairvoyance itBef^jiliDh I have no idea he
can da The phenomena which he attributes to clairvoyance. Mi to my mind, deariy
referable to mesmeric credulity.

In 1842, Dr. Buchanan, of Cindnnati, claimed to have discovered that the phreno-
oigans could be excited, by teaching die heads of mesmerised or impressible perBonSy in

xso KKum iEiro vrou mmimuL tU

^paiiaeiilv nManear; atid fae phidafiaieil that hy thit nwiiw lie faicl diBcorered wkbf
lew <ii^ni and functioiii, botk vk the head and in the body. This nei^ nolibii tcmM
mmt»y converts, that I devoted sevend taondia to tiie sobjeet, tiie Fssult of winch watf*
thiyt I fW^Ushed in 1844, a work eMitM, £theiolQg;t, orthe Flnfaaophj (»f Metaaetian atti-
Ehrenology, in whioh the whde mattor was ei^iilained, hj thtf^ng that the eiq^rhilflat^
eis deceived themselves, and that the asioaishing tesalts we»e pvodtaced by eperatingv^H^'
intentioBiaUj, upon the mesmeric credolitDr and imaginsttion of the subjects. Pfarene ■sgi
Qetiflm IS now abaadaned and ahnest fbngdtten. In- 1850, uMsmerism was presented icM
tk(B public, under several hew names: Biology, Bleetro Biology and F^chology, wei^i
te tenbs employedtibr what was dained as a new scieace,* by mealns ef which liMi^
diseases could be cured, atkl many strange and fantartic tricks perfenaed. Seme pwc^i
I^ now present, wiU recoUeet that Mr. Theophthn Flake in^KMiiiced this prcMelkM«
dew discovery into Boston, and they will ako reeoUect that I gave a series of leoCikN*^-
9nd experiments in the Treniont Temple^ to show that it was netfaing new, but merely^ifal '
oeme old eMsni^riaia in a new giiise. The phenomena were essentially the same as the^ed^t
eoiAed in my book pubSshed in 1644. Biology was sold as a secret^ in this city, ibr Isife
doUan to eaeh person initiated, and FIske realised six thousand dollars, while I maid*
one thousand in showilig tl»t it was merely an efifect produced npon the body mki AiH
BiBd, by afieoting certain fiMohies of the adnd, e^>eeially rsveseace sind crcdon s i^ i ^

Immcome to the conelnskm of this history, by aMori)agyot»tlM-alltA« lon^ttM-'
tri phenomena presented by i^Hritnaimedinms, are the very jame mesmeiio mani fisste'
tioBS^ in a new fbiia and under new names, and associated wll& the most sacred seotft*'
ments of love and tevchrenee ix our departed ftiends.

The best evidence may be given, tiiat I am not asistaken in thw view of theirabfMji'
ftr I plec^ myself to leprodoee aH the honest phenomena <if the trance state, suehtiyAHII^'
tiensoioBs spealdng, and wriling coawcnnnttations, apparently freu the dead, but v^a3Sy^
ftetti the heated minded the wrfteies— ^mnconsciwiii table tipping— vision-eeeing, see^
ing fiimiture move that-does not move, hearing raps whett no real noite is made, fto=
henfillg of acute and sometimes ehronio disorders, is produced by operatix^ ujMn IMr.
iDinijki of this patients, and in no eiber way. The pretence and belief ihbJt speMa hH^
ilsgrtHiigtodowitiitfamca^itnnilMliyofoaeofoaitconntfy, an^ h a -^oal^S^^
diigiade to our eity ef BoAon, Aat sOoh a si^ienMon* «in «Kist, espi^iaily flM>et iti
leqpeetable and edncatttf people. Hdkjdly, abbire ellj in a f^Bligioiisimd moraS pomt of w#v'
tUb new doctrine iand prtietiae aluit l>e vifarded'ni<MAlieBeii^ hi ldail|>heniy aieSd 1^'
4diiatitigm petditmu

I thought proper toftote my views upon ^uit Bcdtttefi^, lii Ibmi deav ttndlirief away aft t
eiMdd, to give It brier sbatetneirt^ of fte history oi mesmerisn; ftrid) i(t le[a^,.y(M^
will, some of you, understand how it hi^ipWied that when this Spirituafinn ckm'e tbfiri^
I became its particular opponent I did not volui^teqr to attack Spiritualism ; it attacked
me. I stood upon the defence. It is weD' known to some of you that, more than twen-
ty-five years ago, I w»s Jeetyripg upon pbrttnokgy, while I was .a law stodn^ X4id
Qottntend to oontiaae it. But I happened to disctover^^ 2 though^« certain clinriici^
tion of the^ogeasy in phrenology ) «nd v^em aft ensa s d i^ Dir. Buftlmnan said }i# eM|>
iljjiMt a certain olwoCP<gu% I denied itb Atthesane tiBe^Icodd*ne«espb&iit|i»:
tf>enflmen» J wimj in tiie amm pwdjcament as mtoy.jieo^ are ili wgaodto fipiBHimlii
inu They sa^ ''J9ei». ave .the phcAQmenni'' A into ts«(tef oeitHii m^^ of tw^
l^ea^,; a&dhfiiiho]f|stii^lM> ^ yisn eeenanhimof dishDnestgrf ieoold.noteif Ah(.

Utt DISOITMIOir or 0f miTUiUJtlC BBTWBEir

in tlus ci<7, in r^ard to biology ; where I agreed with ham^ that it ww a humbag;*
It. was iclaimed that biology was something new^ What was it ? It was tduDg m
4 man perfectly awake, and operating upon him, and making him do essentially thr
Dune things that Spiritualism does now^ It was the old mesmeric experiment, that Mr»
Snnderland and myself have performed; thousands of times. And yet, men had tiiei
impudence to come into ikk city and declare it was a new discovery ^ and chai^ge tnt
dollars, to each person, for teaching it When Spiritualism came up, I thought there
might be something in the rapping part* I knew there was not in Andrew Jacksod
Davis. He commenced while I was lecturing on mesmerism, in Poughkeepsie ; and if
I had not lectured there, you would never have hfeard of Andrew Jackson Davis. He
became interested in the subject, and became a healing medium, and went into Coo*
necticut, where he became acquainted with Brittan. It seems I started Davis, and he
started Brittan, and he started Lyon and somebody else. They went like a row of
bricks. And they have told me, sometimes, I was to be their great apostle, and
perhaps I am doing that work now. I am trying to do it, but I work} the other -way.
But certain it is that I have acted, from the beginning, with ooly^no motive, and that
is, the desire to develop the truth. I have led a life of investigation, as every one of
yon who knows me is aware. Now, in regard to Spiritualism. When the Spiritualifte
came out with their phenomena of pretended healing of diseases, I examined it care^
fully, to see if there was any thing in it more than, or diflerent from, mesmerism ; and
I found it was not The true test, as they themselves said, was. the production of the like
efiectsL They often said — ** Why, Mr. Grimes, if thb is no more than mesmerism, yoa
ought to be able to produce the same phenomena that we da" At first, I had to ttj
some new experiments ; and I did not know that I could succeed. I had never seen a -
mesmerizer produce a tipinng medium or a writing medium. The manner in which me-
diums wrote was something different from any thing the mesmeriaer had ever done. But
I went to work and tried an experiment, to nuike just such writing mediums as theirs^
and I found I could. And I will enter into a ccmtract to manufacture as many writings
mediums as you want, at short notice and upon reasonable tenns — just as good ones as-
ypa are. You may appoint a committee of your Purest men, and point out the di£^iw-
coice. They may be difier^it in complexion and stature — you know what I mean. I
commenced a course (^ lectures in Mercantile Hall, and made a writing medium of a " mi^
whoin I did not then know ; and I ascertained, afterwards, that he was a member of
tiie Legislature. He had never tried the thing, in his li& ; and in ten minutes he wrote
a communication from his departed fiither, saymg that he was happy in the spirit^woridb*
He did not know how he came to write it ; the whole thing was new to him, and he did>
not know how he did it I really am not aUe to see the di^Terence between this
mediumshipandthatofthe Spirilualists. Iflamwiongin thisi I shall take the grealeefe-
delight in being instructed by my eloquent opponent here.

iff. Ckabrman, and Ladies and OenOemmi I amnnable to se^ what bearing
m^ bro&er's remarks, — or the great bulk of them, —have upon thb quesdon. The'
^pnstion is not whether phreaonasagnetism is true; the question is not whether
ptychblogy, bblogy, and mesmerism, sire all one and the siune thing. The quee-
tioB i^—- Can lA« wtHma phenomena known as modem Spirit ManHfataHtMs he saHsfae^'
iMif andphihsopUeaUf aceomU9d foTf wii^^ adwMng ike agency vf departed spiritat
AH that my brother has said, except some few general remufa, seems, to my mkid, to
hem aoheiiring whatever iqpQatiMqoeilaon. IliKveaotyinaerelatiaiioflBynoiiDep*-

' LXO MILLBB AXTD^PBOV. CUUIEIS. ■ ItS

om &ct8 introdaced liere^ night «fter night, eyen mentioned tiie name of a writmg me-
diun. Will my brother be bo kind as to ^ attend" to the fiusta which I introdaced ftr
his oanaderadoQ ; and moreover, will he ihow us the logical consistency in rejecting
certain &cts that will not accommodate themselves to his theory, while those Acts which
a^ more obliging, bat no better estaUished, he is ready to receive on the slightest tes-
twmy ? Now, I will give him a ftct ccmnected with mental manifhstatioiis ; and it can
he confirmed, over and over again, by witnesses living m this immediate vicinity. [Mr*
MiUer proceeded to relate this incident previoosly described as taking {dace at the hooaa
of Mr. Southworth, of Neponset See page 17.]

My brother has told wlutt he has done, — that he made Andrew Jackson Daviii and
tiiat bat for him there would never have been snch a man.

' Mil Gbimes. — Bid I say that?^have yoa not misstated what I have saidt

Mb. Miller. — That we never should have had his brilhant productions.

Mb. Grimes. — That is a fact; bat I didn't make him. ^

Mb. Millkb. — I meant Andrew Jackson Davis as a clairvoyant: it is needless to
catch me in words, for it is plain, to every one, what my langoage implied. I mean Da-
vis; the clairvoyant, whose ** Nature's Divine Bevelations "has gone through some fifteen
editions in this country, and several in Eurc^; who has awakened the mental and theo-
logical world from the sleep of ages. And should one of the young men who came
finrward the other night, in the professor's lecture-room, to be '* develo{>ed " as a writing
medium, ever become a president or senator, I do not know but my brother wiU
claim the credit of promoting him. But this is not here nor there. My brother has
done good ; I know he has done good.

' Mb. Gbimss. — The gentleman seems to deny my veracity^ I would say that An-
drew Jackson Davb, in the very boc^ which my fHend spoke of, said he started in hui
career in consequence of my lectures.

Mb. Milleb. — I did not deny that Davis came forward with others to be Experi-
mented upon ; the gentleman may have mesmerised him; but Davis says that he did
not

Mb. Gbimes.4 — I did not say I did.

Mb. Milleb. — No : but you would lead us to infer that Davis and the woild are in-
debted to yon for his productions, nmply because you went into a certain Dotch town in
Ifew York and mesmerized " zome voQcs," among whom was the lad Davis, whom you did
not mesmerize ; but who afterwards became a highly susceptible subject, and astonished
the world. It is veiy possible ftiends, that all my brother claims^ in relation to the mat-
ter, is true; and it is possible also that this discussion may lead thousands to convene
with the' angel-world and with the dear departed of other days. There is not a man
living but is doing good, either directly or indirectly; -and I often think that the ex-
poaer of Spiritualism does as much good as the advocate. I am not sorry that my
brother is in the field. I can have no personal feeling : I expected to meet this q[ip6sitioay
and a determined one. There never was a theory of explanation advanced that has not
dAiegoodiT - In the very outset j some writer came oat with an explanation, published in'
the TH&tine uid other papers, ekplbding the wHole thing;- It was explained to be-
nothing but electricity, working in pine tables ; and jnne tables became popalar in
ortlKidox circles. The whole religious world breathed euder when they learned how
ttmplQ.it. was* Fha/e tables were procured, : private orthofjo^. circles ^rere fiomed* «ihL,

• ». ■^■''.1 *. ^ ' \

Iffii Disonmm or wnoroAijxsK' mnwMES

fo»tto attDiemiMit^ tii^tlBOfi thefi^ opon H^fjtiOA «f- (M^jyogTnj; or k^
tlwi^ (Shn they^hM) inutgfeing IV td be flcythibglral'liailnliM miiiiS^b^^^
ttidll3^;<.w]i!en lo:l wfM^ wtxffipkdkL aitid exj^loicdtbej^ySne-taMe^t^ry; aoid eonskM*^*
tbe oompany of the pi»«toKOe dlttl» dear departed \ 'Rm doe^eppdeUioti and peMeeotiM '
d» good whaa itk wtended ib» e^ ; and I am ftankftil fkot, in Ibe order df liiltiMi
efMytkingitOr^i^ytikfdltvgood. ¥c8; mybwikherliiuidoii^giood; every opponeiitferfi
dOM gCMid; tliCMe wbo evneiied JteBos Cfarirt did good ; tlioscf w1k> bitttied MolMel Se^ '
vetOB nt -the stake didgbedf tlKWi irhoopposed nteMtaerittn and t^tjgehtlemaii^^attBfgf^
. science of phrenology have done good. My btp^er is doing hb wo^rk. '^ It nmst iieedf '
bH Aat'efeiceecene ^ but iko to that man by m^em ^die offence ctenel^'*

I do not intend to follow the gmdemaa vmdk kmger, fao^vever, if he leaves the qaeik
tion ; for ^hat h^vea thousand of these things to do with this pp*opo6itipn ? I i»rqpqiB|
this evening, to offer such facts as I have to offer, and to-morrow evening to reply to
lus ix)sition, and stim up the id^meiift

I am requested to read a letter. It will be remeenbeved that Dr. Mattson sent ih' a
l^er te be read, last Saturday evening, in relation to certain sprit-manifestatioiis, to
called, at the house of Mr. Farrar. Mr. Farrar feels that in that letter he was misref;^
ren^lited* or that the firsts in the case were nusstated, and that the doctor must labor,
usdev a mistak^e, or h|U| ii^lfallj^ jnisrepresentBd.

** BosffON, Xmwh ISftb, 1800.
«IdEO Mnun, SsQ.e-^JDeor filer, — WH yon present the toVLcmiog hiitory of Dr. Hattson'fi ylsit to. any
hMte, iteA nfh^ wiA dime tliere? A. geailenisa eaUed, one morning, ffifing the name of Dr. Uattaoii, and i^
qawlM'tA'eee Ifr. op Xni. fbnw. I not befBg a% hote^ lEn. F. anr Mm. Bb stated to her that he had hentt
tlMt.wofregvflfttly had spMtn^ilmaaifeitMieta^fandMigMiMirfaatioterntedin the matter, would Iftt lolw
proient at some sitting, if agreeable. She replied that we had many applications from our friends^ and tti
would be impossible to accommodate all ; but if ho would call between three and four o'cloelc, I should probi^ ^
b]j|te at bdtaie, and it w(mi1<| also hi nsosssafy to see the modtnm, Mr. Squire, who lived some distane^ fl^pa
our house. At the time named he came ; | was at home ; lir. Squire was thne, and three ladies. He was told
tluU the only iaa^nlfestatloiis we ever 'tiled in daytioae, were writing and tiie watch experiment. The latter

then shown him, precisely in the mannnr described by me. He was then told that Ire should have smne of ««#
fHwids, oi^n evening which was then named, — it might have been tho same evening, — but of this I am qpi
Gcftdli. On the evening naniMi; lie Wits pMsitot, >tith others. The usual course was pursued, among fheu
UtoiNttsa •KpeiiBieKty ia hefcbaia d »ii rtboi ^hy— , and in no other way done or attempted. Thegtti«aa

burning brightly at the time, and evexy hand placed upon the table, except one hand of the medium,
which the watch was suspended ; that was under the table. This statonent is substantially cinrrobotated bj
the three ladies who were present.

" There are several errors in his statement respecting tho manifestations which were made when the rooBt
wiidUheaed^ hutaa I faaxM aade -no leihwnee to any ntttailMbations under such eireumstanees, I lAiall aot
notioftham. 4>s to Us Mala to aeeoiipUsh the same things, no one of those whom I know were prami «a'
♦l if> p peisio n, racoUects any sueh thing; but still it nuiy have been the ease. Mr.'Bugbee, the iihalis^siLrf
Ifir. Gx^msB* committee, has been at my house to wltpess these thii^, and it would be well to ask him If tiit
Kfoih ItaM light or diurk, iriien the experiuont with the wateh was tried; also, whether the deseitption Jgik^
ovthalaf the doalar,WM the node wed idm he was present. Hundreds of ottisrs have visited mo te tin
iW pmpofe, Mid w»ay are p i fsa n t to-ni^ht, wiio would donbtlesi oonoborate my statenant in this nqpeal|
IfneeesMcy. "Tows truly,

<*D. rAUUB."

I hav* conTersedy myielf, widi perMms irho have been preeent, and no one has knair%
no oii6 ksowfl, of an imtanoe where Mr. Squire attempted such an experimebt as was
da so ri b e d ^ — l^y beading a wateh in the hand and covering up the wateh. The chant
una hdd upon the fiageis, tiien a handkerchief or somethings iastened over the hand^
and the wateh held down bdim it Iwo«ldaflkMr.Bngbee,ohainnanofFra£ Gdmair
ceimiitliee, if aoek was die fiK>t

Mr. Bitobeb. — Hiat was the ftct when I was present. He left the wat&h out;
irifldi1raB8aqpendedl^aeiiiin,a]idtehiiihaii&erehiertiedo^ '

/ : ISO XILUUL AWDf XBOiV QMSS. : IIS

zMBi Mtt JiWL -^ I .^niwiDB there ure other witDMMt btn whai1i«v»«ien thii.expen-
meiit at the house of Mr. Farrar : and as many as hare, in the manner describedy jMdr
neycgr in anj other wajr, wiUplefi^ rfuqe liheir km^

:^A^BBmber(^ persons Tai9ed their h^ndsj

' £D»re are lobe d^ or tea. An^ who h«>re witaewed the CTppiiaciit tried in a«y
otier way, will raue their handi.

[No response followed this call.]

I leave the audience to make up t heii g wi niiadi in regard to this matter.

Dr. Mattsok, being allowed to reply, said : — I would like to know the difference
oTperfbrming the experiment, whether the cluun, merefy, was hdld in the hand, or
wlh^ther the entire watch. It is just precisely the difference betwiaEt tweedledum and
tweedledee. It is a mere quibble, to escape from the tntth. So &r as my recoUectxMi
serves me, the watch was held in the hand, covered by a mitten, as was stated the other
nig^t, and as I did not state in the paper. Then it was coviered wiA a handkerdua£
I am free to confess the room may not have been dai^ it may -have been light. But
what difference would that make ? The experiment, as you asserted, was performed
with the hands under the table, where you could not see the trickeiy gcnng on ; and,
therefore, it was of no consequence whether the room was light or dark. What I have
dbted therefore, was essentially true. The room was daik, however, in the table expez^
imentB: and why V Because he coidd not have performedthem but in a dark room.

Ito. Mra'i'gK*-^ Are you not disenssing the <piestioo ?

Pit. Mattbon.-— This is not tiie first instance in wluch yon hsve attempted to gag

liitnesses who have come here.

I. ■

)(&. MnjjB. rr-I amply object to your arguing the qqesdoii.
Tm CnAoaiAX. — This alteieation is entirely ont of order.

Bb. Mattsov.— ^ When a witness who comes here to testi^, is aocnsed of misrepre-
smu^tiony he has a right to speak. I have something farther, which I have a right to
81^ ; and I claim the privilege of saying it, at another tiioe — at any time you please,

TsDB dHiOBMAV*— I sit'here simpty as dudnnan; and I undentuid my bosinesB is
Ib'Keep eider.andto disp^ise thetime, toeaeh disputant, 6oiTeetty. And if either di»-
bater sees fit to give away his time, I have nodmig to say. Unless either does, I oaik-
not allow it.

Mn. Farrab. — Maylbe.penmttedtosityawovd?

X^s CsAHOiAii. -p-If Mr. Jbfiller gpres way.

'ghu M TfiTnitTfc. — r yre my tiaae.

, Mb. Fabrab. — The gendeman says Ae diSbrence is between tweedledmn and
tweedledee. The difference is just the difference between truth and fidsehood. I
stated, sir, that the evening' jou were there,' the watch was depending finom the finger,
Q9f inland' only hting under the taHe.

: Db. MATTse&*-->IddnotbdieveIwaievBr4h«eintibeeftnii^p.

Mb. Fabeab.— I hi8V0 witnoMOs.

126 DISCUBflliOV OF 8FIRITUAX.X8M BETWEEV

]>B. MATTSON.r-tToo had witiie«68 lasl sight; and yoa took bade yocnr own

Mb. Farbab. — I have said all I have to say, and I -will nwmtain it anywhere.

Mb. Milleb. — I shall be sorry, indeed, if oar tame is to be fiittered away in tins
nuoner. I read tfaie gendemah's letter as he handed it to me ; and the letter will go
into the Report If there is any personal feeling between the parties outnde the di^
cussion, it should be settled outside.

AIR. QRXBCB8.

iEvery one will understand that I had no personal feelbg in this matter. I did not
bring the matter up. My opponent read what he called facts, which I did not consider
any facts at all, and I took no notice of them. I stated what the rules of evidence ax^e;
and I belieye he is a lawyer, himself, and knows them; and, indeed, he admitted
my statement, and. is disposed to say but little about it He knows, and every
lawyer knows, that if a man says a thing b in existence, he is bound to l»ring.it forward
if possible. If a man says he has a bear with sixteen 1^, locked up there, and will not
let you look at it, the inference is that it does not exist He knows the old legal maxim,
non apparenUbus non exiUeniUmi, When h^ read that story about Squire, I took no notice
of it Every one who begins to talk about that, in this city, tells what an excellent man
Mr..Farrar is, — that Mr. Farrar has lived here so long time, and everybody loves himi
to show that Mr. Squire is not a imposter. It is not said that he is a very fine man.
I have heard the contrary. It is said that Mr. Farrar is a very fine man, and thertilbre
every one whom he admits into his house is a very fine man. It does not follow, be-
cause we respect Mr. Farrar, that we respect his ox, and his ass, and every thing that
is in his house. A great complaint is made that I do not believe the stories told of
these mediums. When ihey contradict nature itself, when all nature rises np to. say
they lie, they arc very angry beeause I do not believe them. But when <kie maja comes
fiirward, as an honest man, contradicting nobody, but merely what he himself knew, he
is stopped. He told, himself, in his letter, that Mr. Farrar was a respectable man, that
he invited him courteously ; and he told me, over and over again, till I was vexed witih
it, what a fine man Mr. Farrar was. I told him, " Never mind Mr. Fairar ; let us hear
your story." Even at the time, there was an outcry against Mr. Mattson's character;'
even before his name was made known, they began to attack him. They said they
knew the man, ai|d intimated that he iras a little intoxicated. Then they aid he ifM.
there twice. Then I understood Mr.. Farrar to retract it

Db. Mattson. — After affirming it half a dozen times.

Mb. Fabbab. — On inquiry, I foUaanA I wais mistaken in the name. -

Mb. Gbimes. — That story was not understood. I have heard it said, to4ay, tbtt
Mr. Mattson " backed out" After the lecture was oyer, a SjuritQalist said to me^^iNyt
3^. Mattson was not a req>ectable man, and wondered that I introduced him. I Udd
him I thought he was, though I knew him only as a scientific man :. for, in my travels^ I
never met a man who knew so much about physiology, as he. I was told that if I went'
to the Merchants Bank, I should find out his character. I accordingly, to-day, sent a
gentleman to the Merchants Bank, who inquired about his character. They said they '
knew nothing against his diameter^ whatever; they had nothing to say against it' > I
mpposcd he owed the bank ; and there are a great many honorable pecsona^ who «we

X.XO XILLBB AVD PBOr. 0KIMB8. 1S7

tlie banks and cannot pay. But the bank owed him. There was a difpnte aboot a kut
check, and they did not know whokvt it ; andMr. Mattaon had a written statement, from
all the officers of the bank, that t^ey had had the money ; and they had nothing. One of
the officers of the^bank said that he knew him well, and was surprised that any fldng
should be said* against him. But to-night, my opponent failed in the courtesy which
generally characterizes him. He wants to know what motive people had to lie. What
motive had this gentleman, — a professional man, — to lie ? what moti^ has he, to tell
a &lsehood in regard to this matter ? Beside, he does not stand alone. I have been
told, to-day, that there was another witness. And let me say that if the trick is per-
formed successfully a thousand times, you are to suspect a jugglery if it is once detected.
FcUsus in uno^faUua in omnilms. He may succeed a thousand times ; if he is caught
once, he is gone. If Squire has tried once, and been detected, he is caught. I under-
stand that Professor Eustis, of Harvard College, went there and tried the e'xperiment,
and found there was nothing done but what he himself could da I asked a conple of
gentlemen, who had time to go, together, to Harvard College, and call upon Professor
Eustis, to inquire of him what the facts were. And if either of those gentlemen is
here, I wish he would rise and state what Professor Eustis said about that

Dr. F. S. GniMES. — I would say, sir, that I called upon Professor Eustis, at your
request, with another gentleman. He told me that in the month of May he went to
the house of Mr. Parrar, in the evening, in company with Professor Felton, and Dr.
Johnson, of Cambridge ; that they witnessed several of these manifedtations ; that the
tabic was drawn over the medium's head, upon the bed, in the usual manner. They
also witnessed the watch experiment, — and another, in which the table was appar-
ently suspended in the air. After the medium had performed this table experi-
ment, — sitting with his back to the bed, in the dark, — the door was<^ned, so as
to admit light )fito the room, and Professor Eustis, there and then, right in the
light, performed the experiment that the medium had previously performed in the
dark. Ho stated to me that he did this in the presence of Mr. Farrar,* Professor Felton,
and Dr. Johnson. He also witnessed this watch experiment, — the watch-chain being
' placed in the hand, the hand bandaged,' and the watch suspended a litde distance
below the hand. He did not try that, himself, but watched the medium, carefully.
'While the medium observed Professor Eustis was looking at him, he seemed very diffl^
dent at)out performing the experiment ; — he evidently didn't like too close examinatioii
of the matter, especially by Professor Eustis. But the professor's opinion, and that of
every one present, except Spiritualists, — that is. Professor Felton and Dr. Johnson,—
was that he did it by gradually working the chain up into his fingers until he could
grasp the watch, and then loosening the case, — the idea conveyed being that as he held
it suspended from his hand, where it was impossible for him to touch it, the spirits loofr*
ened the case and let it fall to the floor. Professor Eustis* opinion was that Squire did
this with his fingers, 4t being a loose, rickety watch, the case of whictt being opened, it
would fall off by a mere rap against the table.

With regard to holding the table above the head, it was declared that spirits would
raise the table above the beads of those present, and touch the persons present on the
head. The professor was careful to observe the circumstances of the experiment ; and
he there saw this man hold the table on his head, being a little taller than those present ;=
and thus, by merely tipping his body a little, the medium could hit the heads of those
around him. Professor Eustis remarked that Dr. Johnson would testify to these facts.

Mr. Grimes. — ;Did Professor Eustis say that they gave their opinion upon the char-
acter of the performance ?

138 - Di80lr«m»r or afPoatVALoat obstwubit

Dkt^ F. a Gbdcss. — H^ laia that the opbkm.df Dh JoktMOfi, Ftvfeanr FabMy
and hinself, was dial that medium mm impo«iig apoH Uto/crodalify ol llv. ^FBtTar^ aad^ .
liiilij^ Mr hb expense, in his hoiae.

Mi^* Grimes. — Haye you said any thing of joar own accord, olr hav^ you reported
mfff^ijf^ what FrofefHsor Eustifl aaid ?

- • ■

&u F. S. GvliBSi — I ha^ merely reported the couTereatianr-r- not in the pr^
ciBB lai^nage, but from iiiq»refliiofu that I received from th9 profepaoc, when I Tivited
him at yonr request

1&. MiLLEB. — \^To Mr, Qrvmes^ Senior J] Do you beliere the statement that thoiB
proK^BSors make ? and do you beliere these facts occurred as tiiey state tiiem?

hfjEL. GjUMS&i — That is for the audience to say.

BIB. Miller. — Do yon consider their testimony reliable ?

Mr. Grimes. — The public know Professor Felton, and it not necessary for me to
say any thing about hiin.

Mr. Miller. — Do you put confidence in their statements?

Vm» G&iMBS. — I decline to answer that Is it not a little ridiculous for me to say
that I have confidence in Frc^essor Felton, President of Harvard CoU^;e ? I might as
well endorse one of Mr. Farxar^s notes.

Mr. Millbr. — Tou think their testimcmy good, then ?
Mb. Grimes. — Yes, sir.

Jfe. Farrab. — On the occasion of these gentlemen'^ visits, the sitting was not pub-
lio.( and it was very different from what the yoqng gentleman has said to-night, no
such asserti^ins having been made ; and the only thing in regard to this watch matter,
that mm said, by Pro&ssor Eustis, was, that while his eyes were intently fixed upon the
medimn'rf arm, nothing was done ; l^t the moment he withdrew his eyes, the cap fiell
tp the fioor. It was not a rickety watch, by any means^ it had three cases, one of which
iraa opened by a spring firom the bottom. It was not the case that was loosened from
the watch ; it was the case of an dd English watch, which, every one knows, is covered •
by a cap with a spring turning round* Three cases of the watch were usually openedf
apdthat spring on tJie cap turned, which covered the works, and that fell io the
ground. Now, any one can judge, whether a person with his hand firmly bound, wi^
the watch suspended by the chain which I have now, — any one can judge whether a
perM>n so situated could probably perform the feat, as described by Professor Eustb to
Dr- Grimes. The watch hung several inches below Mr. Squire's hand. And on one
ooeasion, it was sealed up in pi^ier. He could not get that up into his hand ; there was '
90t the slightest chance far him to hold it in any way, and by knopking it against the
table to open three cases, one of them the fiice of the vratch, closed by a spring at the
bottom, which must be held up by the bended finder, the little spring inside tuniedi '
iriiich.held the cap, and the cap dropped on the floor.

As to Mr. Squire living at my expense, that is a wholesale falsehood. Mr. Squire
had a lather and mother, on whom he depended ; and had beside, another calling. He
mt then studying law. He came to my house occasionally ; he was never an inmate
of my house, but merely came there when I requested him to do so, as I did very fre-
quently, for the purpose of ascertaining the truth of these things. I wished every
pha0eofmindtoexamine.it I should have been very happy, had I known you to be in

. ; .imO XBXVB AlTD PBOF. GJUIIBB. IM

^hk minity, to hate bad foa tluue. . I sent an inWtetioa to FraftMor Feteoii,to ooma
wlien. h6 pleased, — the liocue ifaoald be at Ids service. There were none bat mj own
funily, there, on the occasion of the visit of the Uarvard professors — they had it all'
Iheir own way.

These things were pefimned in my own fhmily, and many odien haive seen them
dime ; and no person has been able to detect the slightest jugglery. If it can be ex-
plained, let it be explained. Istand ready to be convinced that Spiritualism is hum-
bug. I diall go about my business as calmly, to-morrow morning, if you explode it, as
1 shall, probably, believing it to be true.

One word more. The statement which I made was that I saw that watch. I did
not say any thing that could be controverted. I merely mentioned that the watch, in
my plain sight, was raised up for a little while, remained there, and then fell down in
^g^iit, and the cap fell upon the floor. That is all I said, and that the gentleman has
seen fit to controvert by discrediting the entire experiment which he saw peif<nmed.

Dr. F. S. Grimbs. — Allow me to say, it vras the cap which fell to the floor, but
that the case would be opened so that- die cap could fall to the floor. Tliat was what
Professor Eustis said. At the same tune, allow me to say, he spoke very kindly of Mr.
Farrar. •

Mb. Gbdibs. — Everybody does that

I>R. F. S. Grimes. — He stated his impression, and that of every one witii hhn,
that Squire was a rogue, without doubt

Mb. Miller. — I would suggest that my brother and myself conduct this disenssiony
hereafter.

Mr. Grimes. — No one on the otiier ade seems to see the bearing of the matter.
Let me tell the gentieman what the bearing is. My friend is all the time teUing stories
about something that happens in Madison, Madison County, New Yoik, or in Ohio.
When a story is told that happened here, persons rise in the audience, — I dont hunt
them up, as it is well known that the lawyers da One man rose, under the influence
of his conscience, and tcdd what he knew. That brought out another; and when he
rose, his character was attacked. When Prc^ssor Felton was quoted, I was caDed
upon to endorse Professor Felton's character. And the characterof everybody that does
not believe Spiritualism, or any of these wonderful stories, has to be upheld.

Mr. Miller. — - 1 beg the gentieman's pardon : I asked if he considered their testi-
mony reUable.

Mb. Grimes. — Oh^ everybody heard what yon asked, my friend, and everybody
knows what you meant

I beg leave to present another document I think it will introduce another of thase
^ fiksts." I read from the New Orleans CrescerU, of February 29th, 1860 : —

** DnAniABAiroi ov Utt, BiDifAir . — W« jettarday g»T« bodm Msooant of the middm dJiCTiwnoe oiCDr>
B><ipwTi (not Redmond^ as w» had it), the pzeteaded Sfiliitaal mediam, who had fbr some weeka been aAon-
iaUng and fleecing crednloiu people in this oomm^imity ; he disappeaied in consequence of the aniVal of 'Dr .
Bly, who qnietly went to work to riiow some of the Tlcllms how th^ had been deeehed, and opened' an ofllb*
on Dtaphlne Stieet, near that of the swindlsiv that he might be mdyat band to ezplaiD tbi swikidle to«a
fdio«tlilEcicaU|i«.

"Wt were miainlbrnied when we stated that Redman's cheating was lint d i so o tered by » weUtounm.Spliii-

Tialist of this city. Dr. BIy, azriving qnietly, and flmUng ont the names of some of the most promifaentof the

Ttetims, had an intenriew with this genOeman, and after astonUiing Mm with raps and measagesftom doi

•Mated ftlsnds, nil done in foeh a manner at to baflls the dosaat aenifciiqr, developed the whole cheat tOL.hiip^

*^ nqiMftiwI hlw tn TJiti BtdrntTt rgaJTTj thir \nMw iifrt yftt Mngtwimirf ff'y*t rrrirrl , XhefentlsoMUk.ini&t;.

9

180 msduiigtiMr 6w »T6XruAiMmitWt^mm

htdiKKiiamjAkiaagMihJMnMa^ tow rite tl» Wfek;- dwfafMbta tfa to ifc inimtHdg

HDd dM»nd0d th« veitonttion of oner ■ himdn^ doUan ho hadpaUt to faim< Hodman zoAiqdfld tho mmiej, i|a4
in lata duux an hour from that thne, he waa off for ^arta unknown.

•'T^aiffdilj/ir^TiHtodbr. fiiy. Ho aatlA^ ui thorofai|hiy m to ifUt fte itlofeai tii. i^'piiitilM WAW
called spirit-rappiBKa, and produced written meaaagea from our dead friends, in a manner aa |Mlfet MrfMriMK
aair at any flplritiaal tltting to ciroka, at Ipa^y of IMtikh wo hoTo bee^; piaiffi^. Bo told ua bettm ha lipuk
that he waa frnfygoix^to humbug ua; and l|>eUeTing this wo were atill prodGVundly aatenished, fi>r wo wna
nttorly iin^lo to dei^^ the bumbul^ry. Aherward, when the doeib^ dt^liliiea' w^ irldiu,' aiid ptt VU IftOV
Hkj ^dblng fto aune thb^ aa weU aa he,' we will fr^ly eonifete Oat iniai aatoni^UbOlii iMhVuMed td 1^ kHllia>;
Tberbnovor waa* cheat ito ^frnpla The ." OaliAymia ball game," and. tha dttanr aaMndllo tri^ ^Ih itpdg
awindlers decoy caah out of the pockets of the unwary, must hide their diminished heads before theae prftorinod
8piriti|al maniftstatlona, by which Bedman and other robbers haVe reaped so a&uch money ft<nn the ibinStpAtF
^miiltit&deB>

There is another one of the acfkhowledged niediimiis, bne.of iihose ni^h wHd ^^ai^ fj^^
tweeh vis and the spirit-world, whom my friend Dr. Gardner, — who, I think, certauHjr
acted honorably, hiniflelf, — tbdk to the profesisbrs^c^ Hiarvard College, to jpoor a "flbod
dr l^ht into bieir benighted minds.

iiXt. WTTiTifrtl.

J^. Chairmanj and Ladies and Gentlemen : I have not called in question thie t«-
xacitj or integrity of my brother's witnesses. It is nnnecessary to inake any persMuJ
#1^T\r>*- But I will again repeat, that one denial never disproves an affirmation, — tiiat
Qnecoomterfeit, one fraud, never destroys a single fact

And now in regard to this testimony. I asked him if he conndered P^rofes^r t^el-
tbn*s tesiiinbny reliable. I did hot ask him in brder to tiOl in question the ' isvidMice,
but fflmplj to make my brother commit himself, one way or the other, as to wheAer Ini-
man testimony is reliable Or not, though this would seem unneceasary since be makes
such free sue of it himself Mr. Eustis stated, to Professor Grimes' son, that he saw ce]>
tain things faj the Aid of light coming through a dight opening of the door; and thia k
ikitrodnted as good evidence. Now, what I wish to ask is, does he take this as reliaMe
evidence, toiettablish his negative position ? and if so, by what rule does he set aside
my affirmative proof? I believe that human testimony is good. God has not given va
^es to deceive ins, nor has he given us so much marvellousness that we shall always be
led astray by it. But it is doubtless true that strong prejudices have often blinded men'a
^aon, so that diey are hardly capdble of seeing things in their true 1 IghL . Pteji»*
dice operates as &r, and even further, in obscuring the mind, and the vision, as the most
unbounded credulity. The testimony, therefore, is to be received and weighed' t^^e-
fully, on both adcs. But, I have brought forward a man who testifies that he hkiTifii^
and doisi know. l7ow no amount -of negative testimony can set this aside ; and parClfcii-
larly when the witness says he did not see that thing, but saw something else.

One word in regard to the motive which would induce these men to practise decfep-
rtion. I ^an see a thousand times ndore reason for one man to practise decej^tidn^ tiiiD
- for another, in this matter; and I will tell you wherein. I do not wish to be nnderalDed
; as accusing either party of dishonesty ; but simply say this to show the fhllacy of Mitib
an argument. Mr. Farrar holds unpopular opinions, and without any personal intereit
t defends them amid all the prejudices of society. It can be of no possible intereife io
' him, in the world. Unpopular opinions are generally cherished in sincerity. How b
: it with Dr. Mattson ? I need not select him, as an individual ; but how is it with the
N medical profession ? It is manifestly for their interest to drive back the spirit-world, if
• 80 be they come to heal the sick; that they may be allowed to drag hnmtfnity, till they

liaTe dragged it into the grave. My friends, I have seen tins q^t of peni6ctitS<ln ; I tiave
known of homoeopathic physicians being tarred and feathered, because their system was
making ah innovation upoh their regular .practice of " bleeding and Ui^teriog." I say
tibere is a thousand tives more motive for the -doctor to bo dirixwest, than for this medium
whom he xepresents as a humbug, i have read Professor Grimes' book. Be [stdtes ^
case that occurred hi the presence of Dr. Bell of this city, where a girl, without re-
muneration, aad not a public medium, was detected, as he affirms, by himself,^ in
deception, pushing the table with her feet. Now what is the differenbe !il Chb motive
for dirixmesty? For a seenunglV conclusive expos^^ Professor Grim^ gets, fh)m a
prejudiced world, a thousand doUarl^ whereas the girl gets not. afiurthing, but Bubjects
heiself to all the reproach and scorn which any scioh thing would naturally inspire in
the minds of those who are ignorant of the ihcts. And I may say the same of the
Harvard professors: it is for their interest to Oppocse the 4>u^^i^ phik)lb{^y. It is
making innovations upon their system of education, I confess. Have they not ex*
elusive ide^ of education, wrapped up in sel^ interest ? And is it not important for
thf^Bi that the ypiipg and old should be trained up in this ** learned ignoi«noe "• ? When
spirits of the other w^orid will teaeh isien to speak in different languages, v^hen thdy will
inspire Andrew Jackson Davirto promulgRte ft philosophy which enlightens the world,
what i^m be the need to plod -through the Cblleges, and over the mustjr Paiges of the
pest to obtain " a finished education " ? Here .is a youji^ xnan of tbirty^five, who has
written some dozen different books, without the aid of this learned %norMiM;'bbt5k8
which will live when BDarvaid College is forgotten. And so I might proceed with the
ChureL Spiritualism ,is making innovations upon some of their men-made doctrines ;
and, therefore, they find it for their interest to misrepresent Spiritualism* ^ave tji^y
not always done so ? Was not Christ misrepresented and traduced r And why ? It
was ,bocanpe: he uttered Q*nth not fofdnd in theii* creed4kmad iAgritntanas; and tUey
cradled him :for it ; and the fwime spu^

Now, a word in z^^gaid to Mr. Redman. ■ Mr. Badman I presume, is not above temp-
tation. That he,shpuld be. tempted is no matter. of wdnd^n There' h&ve been but few
abofve temptation. Why, the meek and lowly Nasarene, the hiartyr of CalTaVy,
■elected his twelve disciples ; and bne was & Judas, ^and betrayed his master f&t &irt)r
pieces of silver. If Jesus Christ, with his knowledge and wisdom, would select a tnaa*
wlio coidd be bought finr tiilrty pieces of silter, iihall we say that Bedman was abdve
tlie teo^tation of a thousand dollars-? No; it proves nothing whatever. A medium is
desiitKis that. the manifeetatioQs occtkr ; and when cinciunstances and- cenditions render
it impossible $)r spirits to cooununicate, he may be tempted to get up a wretJcfhed imita-
tion ;. but it is islmost .always detected. Let 119 here give a statement of fhet, writt^ and'
anthorixedlgr Dr. Bell, of this cityj in regiird to rairiog actable, ttiioagh this taine'
infidi^un» uni^ oiroum^Anoei ^h«^h precluded the possibility Of debeptiod by any one.

^'*'GHAiuaffowv,;ii|ureli ib, 18^^

BsjlbSib,^! have adistinet nooneetkm of tbf .^|>erlgi^^iii|d9.a|tNmt the first of July, 1867, ^faen «« weighed,
bf a spring halanee, each ei^ of a tahle aa itivwnlidB m w e xk \k» ponderong by some medium power ezer-
daed throng Mr. Bedman. So ftr aa my ability enablea n^ to diacover the iSusta, I did not t^n ftel, nor ,do
Ilwi^ livn, aaTdsdbkbnifhiit tlifrdlibttbM la Ue we^

1^ vcf at Vfm9^ W^t Tr.^>H Pf9diiM&;bj aone ooenlt-cfMndi hi no vaariitolfiiig fksad«r %iMkim Mbm |MM
«(.^o pnm nhii^tlng ttw^i^lEpeii^ 'f,^,M^ pnder^e^ to .en^laii). th^ ^nf.ef 1^ Im^iyy^ iyodae»
inffdllB'idAbnofatoaoki^ bat ia ftr a^Tam qnattfted to appraciate or okieisrVe what occurs befine mj.ej^es, I oaii>.
not admit that there waa jQggUng or aelf-deeH^dUh Itt ih^ taUOB^^

"P.8. This experiment was made at noonday, bcflbie quite a nmnbw of editorial gentlflimn, in the am
■T?wr WmOTvS Wr CT^'i^rnWBn^WvWP Deip^^Q'^«^jnp^BWWBSQ^oiHee*Mw'^na^jwwieB^y/
^<6Dii.H.f.aAi]>iia.» ^ "B. .

182 DISCVBSIOK OV SPlAirnALIBM BSTWEBK

I have also another statement

"We huNibj eerCifj that m wen witseeies of the fbUowinf phenoawna »i the houw off. Q. Pope, No. U
iMt fipringlldd Street:^

** lOfli lioie^ % mediiim, ftood «t » pine table, fimr uid one-half ftet fat lengtti, but not in any way eomfaif
In contact with it. A Inight gaiU^t team a two-bnrner chandelier over the table, was bnmtng brlc^t|j.
After a ftw ndntiteB each of ns waa requested to zaiae the table from the floor. Each of na tded the mxjfvA-
g^t, bat waa nnable to raise the table over one inch from the floor.

(( Mentioning this Ihct to a friend one day, one of onr number, Mr. Stetson, waa told it mnat he only imagi-
nation on our part, and waa told to take a pair of ateelyarda and weigh the taMe before the medium took her
position near it, ai^d to nae the same means of deciding as to any increaae in weight, after the table had be^o,
as waa alleged, made heavier by some unseen force. •'

^^ TIm we^(fat of the table waa ascertained to be seventeen fbunds. When the medium announced tlial
the table waa in readinesa for the teat as to inereeaed weight, the steelyards were applied, and the spring waa
extended to its utmost length, witiiout raising the table from the floor, at a wdght of twenity-foor poanda.

How mnch mcve it would have weighed, we don't know — that was the extent of the
steelyards. .

" It was then announced that this'unseen power would lighten the table; and directing the balances to be
applied, thewelglitof the table, raiaed from the floor, waa found to be twelve p^undsy or five pounds leaa than
the table w«i^ ^en not charged with any fotoe ftceign to itaelfaa a pieee of fltznltora.

«<E B A P I T U L A T I O H.

Wdghtoftable, -- • - - - - -- ITIba.

Wdgbt when charged more thui ..•••. 24 lbs.

Wel^ when lightened, aaoUdmeA by spirit inos, • • • . - - 7 lbs.

•"Thia trial tooic pliuse in Janoaiy, 1868.

"W. ». TUOKXB, .

**aBO. J. THUBSTON,

^CHARLBS 0. aOLlQir,

«1. O. POPB.
*<A»iloi»,2fare412,18eO.'*

N0W9 if human testimony ia as good as the gentieman says it is, if Dr. Bell has eyes to
see, and the gentlemen who have, s^ed these papers are not wholly ber^. of tJieir
senses, why, then, here are some pretty stubborn &ct&fiir my brother^s consideralm.
Dr. Bell has invited scores to his house, and among others Dr. Bay, to witness the mys-
teriooB moving of a large dining-room table, through the medium of a young giii. Dr.
Bell told Dr. Bay that Professor Grimes had been at his house, and that he had pityfessed
to have detected the girl in deception.

Dr. Bay watched, with all the careen the world, and could detect nothing of the kind,
and concludes that it could not be done by any such process as Professor Grimes said
he had discovered. Dr. Bay tried to move the table with his feet^ as Prosessor Grimes
suspected the giil to do, but could not move it more than six or eight inches ; and jet,
that taUe has often been seen to move, n^dly, in niidda3^ through two or three rooms,
and at the threshold of the doors would rise up and pass over. And now I ask if the
testimony of Dr. Bell and these witnesses is not good ? They have testified, positively,
that they have seen ; others have testified negatively, that they have not seen. Which
shall we accept ? ,

.

The gentleman is very -unfortunate in the cases that he dtoL He statee thai that-
same Bedman — actually, that same Bedman — just whipped out of New (Means, canoe
here, all prepared fi>r a modem miracle, to be performed in the presence of this *^ Jodani;'' '
and then the gentleman talks about human testimony,

Mb. MnxEB. — Dr. Bell is the witness.

Mb. GBama.— How, tlMn^'iiiewaid eTI^i BelL • The gteflonaB IsittHiiMM' tni^

y LSO MXLLSB AlfB PBOr. OBDCSA. 188

fotbnate there. The qoesdon before the meeting, of whicli 1117 friend talkp so mbcb, '
and tays I do not take any notice, and which he ttickB to ao closely, h^ — Can the 'warioug
phenomena known as SpirU Mamfeilalions he sadsfaciorUy and j^ilosojxkicalfy aceounied
fin' wkkofd admUUng the agency of departed human Mngi Now Dr. Bell has teen all
these things; and to what conclusion does he come ? That tliey are not done by q[nriti:
hetdd me so himself, and poblished it to the woridyalong time aga A little nnfiirtonatei
that qnotatioQ 1

Mb? Mrrj.KB. — I would explain here — .

Mb. Gbimes. — That fact 'Cannot be explained, at aU. Dr. Bell has told me, him-
self and has told the wozid, the &cts. Dr. Bell, let me tell you, would not wish to be
known as a Spiritualist He is just as much above it — oh, I beg your pardon-^ some of
you are Spiritualists — I forgot that.

BIb. Milleb. — If you will allow me an ezd^adon, according to the rules, I would
like to make iU I would state, to my brother, that I do not claim it is the wodk of
spirits. They are tiie ^ so-called flfurit^nanifestations;'' itisthe sentleman's bosinessto
explain them. I occupy the negative, and ask for a '^ satisfactory " explanation, accord-
ing to the question^

Mb. Gbimes. — Yes, exactly : that is it That whenever a juggler perfinrms a trick,
I have got to show that it is not a spirit; I have got to account fiir it in some other
mode ; I have got to wait till he runs away, or is driven out of the dty, for robbery ; '^

and then the gentleman will admit that so &r as that medium was detected, he was
wrong, — that the very tricks in which Redman was not caught, are all good and genuine,
but where he was caught, that was a little wrong — just a little. Then he qpoke of
Davis, and told what a tremendous man Andrew Jackson Davis was; and he said I
undertook to make out that I made Davis. I said nothing about what I did, except
what Davis* own bode says. And as to my clainung it — foith 1 I am ashamed of the
wfade thing, if I was the fother of it I denounced the brat, and did all I could to kill
it And Spiritualism lives in spite of me ; and because Spiritualism is getting kicked
out of good society, its opponents say it is down, because it is not fashionable. But let me
teQ those who say so, that they are nustaken. It was never increasing fhster than now.
And I will tell you the reason : it has got down into a more numerous and a lower class*
Spiritualism, its believers say, is running like wildfire : and it is. But who ever knew
the truth to run like wildfire ? I never did ; truth is confined to a few ; it is eannr that
runs like wildfire, not tradL When was truth ever popular? Put truth up for
tiie Prendency, to-morrow, and it will be defeated by an overwhelming majority; it is
not an availaUe candidate. Truth, is like a strai^ bar of ircm, that will not bend,
popular or unpopular: error is like plaster of Paris, — it will fit into any thing: and
-that is the reason why error is popular and truth is not Errors are like caterfMllars ;
they live and increase and grow as long as they can find any thing to feed upon. That .
is the reason why Spiritualism is popicbr and increasing. As long as there are supers
stitious minds, the Spiritualists need not be alarmed about Spiritualism. Let diem go
to those who are superstitious : those low passbns to which they pander so much will
keep them well supplied witb disciples.

The gentleman is so fimd of ^facts" and '* cases," that I must allude once more to
the Beport of the Ebrvaid Cdl^e committee. Here is the testimony. The committee
consisted of Professors Pierce, Agaseoz, Horsford, and Dr. Gould. The Courier offered
five hundred dollais, and afvpointed these men to arbitrate the questioB of the payment

184 1 DiscxrmioiT - or- mmnoAymxi j^twien

of fbiaiiioii«^> Be. C^rdner took np ili6 ofifer; W tdokei.ibntmA. ISke tk-mim^iWad' l
hooor.himlbriti ^f I inU Mi^ fbntfaid,'' lie 8iud,'«a^ boil meOites le^nT If b»
ftiled^ it waff not fer want ctf covnige. He lUroi^ fi^rnwtd tbid Fox giiilg,.the £N^ir«iif>
port boysi Axid.ilU« samiBf Redfiiiba^ -r.a £M&t "viik^ slto^ t^ ei^^ ccipfideiiee of tbs
I^Kial^uUiirtlviniM^^ Ili Wailo«9 itafty. Atesgiidiig Ow

fi^ntooant'of thil &ilim, tilieiecMDi*ittfi|e 8&y i-rr-

*^ We leatv with little eeremony, deeming it conoluaiTe; the Spiiitnaliste hang their headi and Mai» ID

leplj; Dr. Bell comei out with iu and pronooncee it an unspooeMfnl t>ie|L.** . . • . .

^ •••■>•■.■■•■ ,.

y^ ^^ei^)EK<tal>)e inan, U^tt Pr. Bell I

'^Uai ikidei the aMtfan. Nothing was done; 1^ thU antt fiMootf OMdinMUVlich eotid b«. ooOaelid, !■
th(» coDfitij, fiif Mid near, e;ccept « 9ttl» xapplbg by tbeFoaep, eaaily txaceal^e to t)(«ir HWWQf tn^ ^¥^f:.
done by othen without the pretence of spirita ; — "

If jp^ ^obt that, I caa bring poen bcre, wbo can do that, in three minutes —

'* not EtaMe Olrptimd Afled, or aby thing xnond a altagle ludr'a bieWMi; not a bUl rmi^f nol^aniiiatNh
BBBt plagrad vpov; nor any i^MBbnaeaon car BMniftftatlon czhlUtBd or en* attnapMb S» ^^ Ihis rijiei^
Iqoa Md inftqMHU inq^tore!^

These are pretty << respectable " men I — this is " human testimony T

' ** If, therelbxe, u^dn itneh a trild, at a meetbig lield under the moBt'&Tmitbto'ciietnnstaneertt^iKth * pM-
niaiy stake depending, of ndiie enoi:qsh, ^^^ ^>^ «kiindt sumxMb oipeihiton who eddiiUt ftr K dollar or tiro to:
b^ Indjflenn^to it, —and wit|i(.emy qppiQartiini^y, m^am, i^nd ipcitiTik lo'dpt their bept, th* Spirteia^atf tffp^
ally ^d nothing — the inference iweins to be iofsyitfible to a r^tiona) nUnd, thfit upon other oceaakuui, nothing
to 'sustain their sj^toak' pretensions' could tutye been done, and thernfore tlw^ noth&g waia done."

I could pte you'a great* deal of it; but that is beaatifiil,; that^ I hayo fptea^^. It w
human te4;iftiooy^ I have said that if the SpirituaUstn are* to gii^e human testiqMHij^;
th^y must brkig the thing itself, not a Aatement that th^y. oan do it*. They have soft
dared to try i^ espcepi: in thid case of Mrs. Coan, and then- th^y -feilfML Th»y b^ve paiA:
that aftte the^ cOimAitteo had got through with my testa, its meoabers did aoia^tbing:
moce. I ba»e ofi^ied' to r&^t that experinient^ in iJio wfiy proposed hy Idar^. CJkMuif
and^ aa the: Spiritualifta claim^ sncoeflrifully tried by those gentleman* Tbe|F cannol* 4»
any thing, but .brag of what has been done, aBd of what will be done» •ame.tiine, Wb^il
the *f conditionav are right

If I hare Bitfficient time rOmainiBgi I will ipead a letter*. I would <iot eritfir into th|l
kind- of disciissiop, but that my friend fbnoe^ me to dor. so. He aay9.he.wiU- intnodnee
fanmaq testimony, and nothing else. J£. I pretended tkere . waft a: gold . field, and^ instead
of abowi&g the.gpld, b»m^ people beie wbo woAlck say tbey had seen i^ I sbouhl be
laughed at. It will not do. to bring in human tesfimony for such purposes. Wbea ym
buy goods, you want to see a sample. '* Just let me see if ^^ But it is ftway down out
of the way; wont you take my wm3d2^ Show the goods 1 — B«tletmeraadthe.lett)Bi&
It was sent to: me, by a. gentleman:; and^ in courtesy, I must read it. It iti written fa^
Mr. Kellogg, a gentleman on. the comnitbee, and approved, eertmnly, by Miother metn-
bee of the committee, lAr. Bugbee.

'* Boaroir, llaieh 131b, 1860.

" Prof. J. S. OamSf — Dear Sir: — As much stress has been laid by your opponent in dabatOf Ifr. milor,
upon theflict that your committee, ^p|>olnted, last week, to testHiis. CoiAi'J OltAt^ fdYiikt thk eoi^ttoJlifoi'aaiisfe'
wMt^wiAei^ tiledFojrtaAa expeMments with namei Written oft ^totg^ and iMtMn out hgr 4lU-«Mdl«iiBi'—
wftMvkHptPlia^ testate ths^ thpsa ^Kperiaenta wen tiMat tl)e e«««i(|Ft: «f4eitalll|na (£^x^. Goaa.aiif
hf^ f|[)^|9^»af|e^ tmQ of ttw coflnmltt^ bad reputedly (teci{>^ *o fp Ijeygp^.tly coipmlss^.y trusted to iif,
and alter we were fil^c^ )>7 them in'sudh a podtion that we could not n^bse ftirther, idUMat seenlng muuiil^

abi0MJi'diyMdkef*i-¥liurt^',^i^iMBi^ tth#Hrthi^»rttofeybtoMJhil mtij^m^'ukm

I.J90 ipiOJUt 49ript PBOF^ GlUOISf. IM

•yi y tBto^ with the propoaedty^:-- That tiw> of iww«c« noHoaf In rach ocpnEiiDffi^ tnd took no uxinml

pVteautioiM against impoBitloii, although we cannot aoenie any ona of pmetiaing daoeption upon w:— Ijifti

Mng xathor linoed to mako tho esqperinMnta, and not having been ishazged with acmtinliteg any sooh triaif'

of akiU, we felt oompaiativeiy little i^tenft in it daring its pto gcm H p and now aee MToral waya in which we

Bight iiaye been decelTed: — That the &ct tbtat both of those who were noTices in the matter, did write so

th^ the names on their pellets were eorxeetly given, while those written by oar ohaiim^n, movegoazdedly, aad

in anotkerpart of the room, eoold not be g^n, makes it proper fbrns to inte that his pieoaatioas prevented

^ mediom ftom reading his names, and that similar precautions would, in every ease, prevent the succeai

off the experiment: —Thai we protest against any use being made of all such Infiimal and inddental action'

epMMotfd with our cemmlaston, and submit to the parties that the f«blle have no riglift tp qoestionaay

^k^]beyondoar legitimate action on the experiment proposed by Mr. Hiller, whieh, inr the reasmis heratoioff

gtvQn, was not snooessfhl: — And that we ftirther protest against a counternreport handed In by Hr. Miller's

fHen^ which referred only to ineldental and unapthoriaed experiments, and mtirajf omitttd to state tha* Vn,

OoML iid call upon the spkiti to infbnn her of the contents of the envriopes, and eoold gst iie rsfmue.

** In Justice to ourselves, we beg you to make use of this to oocmet tha mmnnnnns Impusainnn whtrh Timnaini

In the n^nds of many.

"O.D.KuLom."

I said, and I now say, Uuut notlung could be done by them. Amidst all that has been
given through mediums, not one new idea, so far as I know, has been ^ven. These
Harvard professors, who have been i^poken of so contemptuously, hcofe given to the
yifoifi^ new ideas* The Spiritnalists cannot complain that tli^y want the condition^ ; iv
I have offi^red to go anywhere with ihem, and to submit to any conditions. If ther^.
hat been any thing, unftir oi^ oorpart, I cannot see it

Mr. Chairman^ Ladies^ and Gentleman : I have, night after night, introduced the
testimony c^. reliable witnesses^ in regard to facts. I have testified to what I have.9e(en ;
1^^ yet^ my bppther has not in the least deigned to notice it He seems to have takeii
P9IPS to talkaU arQi^nd. tb^ que^tiop. ^e read a lengthy article, here, to*night} as U^
Report of that Harvmrd committee. And what is that Beport, ladies; and gentlemen ?
It is simply that they did not see any thing. Hundreds have gone to Professor Grimes'
lectures, expecting to see mediums developed —

Mq. Gbimss. — I beg pardon: I did not do justice to that; I did not read the
whole Report They did see the Davenport boys try 9xperim&ts> and it wml fm
D^rac^essful trick. ...

Mr. Miller. -7.I sny ^i^iMtrndshaye gQi^e tD.4Qe ^.g^nj^mw^ make: medinins, vA
psychologize subjects, and have gone aw^y and reported that nothing was done. Tktee
men go into court to swear that they saw a certain transaction in tne streets ; and tliree
men say tihey did not fee U; and> now my brother says the negative evidence is going to
neotralize the ppttdve tettimony in the case! And fiirther, when my brother brings
in lebntting testimoilly, I would- advise him to get a, man who can remember for five
mmiStes that he wrote down the name of a 8pirit4!^end ! Tet he brings m a lengthy
lottev fiKMK ihat gqntleniaB, detttling what has occurred

Mb. Gbimes. — I want to know whether that gentleman means to charge Mr.
KeMogg^th^ysehood? . ' \

Mb. MiLLEB.r-No; but that, according to iiis own 'confeseoon, he has a very

.Mb. .l[jBii^E8.-^TI|at^u it? Tlpi|^ AnUeii|an ifi oiie.tif Af >9p0t ri^sj^t^e i|i^,
ct^anls in the ciW.

156 DI80V88ION OP SPISrrUALIftX BEtWfeBK

Mb. Grimes. — You were very tender with Mr. Farrar. He w an intimate fiiead
of Mr. Farrar.

Mr. Farrar. — He is an intimate finend of mine ; I endorse his character.

Mr. Miller. — I have no objection to endorsing his character, myself. Yet, is it
not strange that a man should write a name upon a piece of paper, — the name of
** Mary Collins," — and that when that name is shown him, three minutes afler, he should
have no knowledge of it ? I am inclined to think he was flurried and bewildered No
man 13 properly capable of making such a statement as he made in that letter, if he
was in the condition of mind in which that gentleman's forgetfulness of the name he
had written, shows him to have been. I have not impeached his veracity. Ovei^
excitement prevented his knowing what was going on.

Mr. Grimes. — That is what he said, himself.

Mr. Miller. — Then he is not prepared to write such a letter.

Mb. Grimes. — That does not follow.

Mr. Miller. — I have introduced well-substantiated facts, and begged of myhtc^Sber
to meet these, instead of going outside of the question, in search of some failure, or sup-
posed doctrine, to ofl^t them. I have asked him to explain the phenomena at Mr.
Southworth's house. Not one of my many facts has he touched. He has demurred to
the presentation of a report on our side of the house.

Mb. Gbimbs. — I did not.

Mr. Miller. — In the letter you just read, such was the case. And, I say, the very
lught when I called upon the chairman of the committee to make the Report, my broth(Br
rose, and rather demurred, until he saw his inconsistency, and perceived that the au-
dience desired to hear the Beport

Mr. Grimes. — I did not say a word about it

Mr. Miller. — Well his own committee did, and he endorsed it

Mb. Gbimbs. — What is that to me ?

Mb. Milleb. — He has read a letter, to-night, blaming us for bringing in a Beport
embodying as important truths as could be presented on this occasion.

Mb. Gbimes. — Treacherous meniory, that !

Mb. Milleb. — Not one explanation has he made, in regaxd to one or another claM
of &cls. He has in a wholesale manner denounced them as trickery, jugglery, and
fraud. He has, from the beginning, denounced nine-tenths of all the trance-mediomsi
and all the physical mediums, as dishonest But yet, when I allude to the credibility of
his testimony, he really implores me not to cast the least reflection upon the character
of his witnesses, or those who sympathize with him.

Mb. Gbimbs. — I did not; I merely asked you if you meant to do sa I did boI.
olject Do it if you dare.

Mb. Milleb. — When I sud his friend. Dr. Mattson, might posaihly be psycholqgiaedf
he rose, and said, " Oh, don't, don't I he is hon^" — or something to that effect Yes,
my fHends, he has some respect for the feelings of those whom he respects. He will

not attack the character of Mr. Farrar, Mr. , or any one who occupies a hi^

poolioa in this city; bat on a poor, defenoeleM ironaiiy one whom the popdar bMNkh

trcmld denounce, he will, with the rabble cry <vHambug 1 *? and ^ Impostor 1 " and attact
her without mercj. One who floats on the breeze of popalar favor, he will pass by;)
but a defenceless woman he hesitates not to pronounce an unmitigated humbug.

' Mb. GniBfBS. — What woman?

Hb* Milleb. — Yott did, on Saturday evening, pronounce Mrs. Coan a hnmbng*

Mb* XtBIICBS. — Well, she is.

. Mb* Milleb. — Yon see, friends, how ready he is to acknowledge it From the be-
ginning, instead of seeking truth, he has endeavored to suppress it; instead of meeting
my arguments and facts, he has studiously avoided them ; instead of introducing science^
philosophy, and reason, he has unblushingly paraded before 'yo^ the vulgar cry of ^ Hnoi»
bugP <' Imposture P ^* Trickery ! " ''Bhupbemyl" and h»t, though not least, hmn
self 1 and what he has done. He has not given us <me explanation. But these facts shall
be piled up. I know they are overwhelming him, and he, in his struggle, is trying
to throw dust in your eyes by talking of what certain men have seen, and of what be
can da He has tdd as about his experiments in mesmerism ; and no one can tell,
from what he says, what he believes mesmerism is, unless they have read his book ; and
then, it is doubtfuL I have read it ; and he there seems to deny clairvoyance. He has
not said that mind acts upon mind, though he has inferred it

Now, my friend has said a word about Spiritualism going into the lower classea.
Why, friends, do you know who are Spiritualists ? Is it necessary forme to name soek- ^
men as Robert Dale Owen, Ex-Governor TalAnadge, Judge Edmonds, Ex-Senator Sim-i
mons, William Gregory, of Scotland, the Emperor Napoleon upon his throne, and a kage
number of Representatives in the councils of this nation ? It is among the low^ classes I
Is it necessary for us tomentaon such men asMapes, and Hare, and Bishop Clark, of Rhode
Island, who has investigated this matter, and says it is worthy . of all respect and iiH
ve8tigatk>n ? My brother may make up faces, and endeavor, by his queer smiles, to ex-
cite laughter ; yet he cannot disprove these facts. Thousands all over the worid, are
daily realising the truth of Spiritualinn. In Oswego alone, over two hundred and
fifty persons have been excommunicated from the churches, because they have said they
believed that the spirits of just men made perfect are " sent forth to minister unto them that
diall be heirs of salvation." And yet, it is <' going among the lower classes ! " Friendsi'
if you wish to know that Spiritualism is true, form your own fomily circles ; and angels wiU
oome, and give you the most undoubted proof of its truth. My friend says it leads to &»•
morality and vice. You know better. Does he believe that it would make him tk
worse man, to feel and know that his father, mother, sister, or brother,- were by his side
tCHiight ? Talk as you will, it must have a salutary influence, so long as man is tempted*
and needs restraint What greater influence can be brought to bear than their pret»
ence V It may be said, indeed, that the eye of God is upon us always. Men ooinmift
crimes under the cover of darimess, when the eye of God is upon them ; yet, when the
eye of a sister or mother is upon them, the evil man will shrink back in dismay.
When the young man todc his first cup of intoxicating liquor, and raised it to hb lips^
on ^hose account ^d he tremble most ? It was because he foared his mother m%hlr
know it, or his sister hear of his debauch. Had he believed his mother or aster wpnkl |
have known it, his aim wcrald have been paralyjEed, ere he.raised it to his lips. Does
it look reasonaUe, that the moment I become convinced that a sainted mother or sister
hovers over me, I would plunge headlong into vfc^ ? or does it appear' to you that it
wonld zestnun and strengthen one i» thfltonnof jteroptation?* While I was leeinij^|p

IBS Disoutnoir .ov^ smRUiAiiaf ^ bsvwjben

ia BlittoifH a young ifiaat said to ine ba-lbid foiuiocl'ainotilni^ a brolkiep, and two 'ftiBien^
in tlie pa3t year. He desive^ evidence ^ immortality. Now I' ask, bow coold tbal> man-,
with a belief in Spiritaalism sit down and deliberately pliu^ tiie rain of an innocent and
virtuoas girl, when he realized that a sainted mother stood W<3r^ l^m* a sister <m <)i|||er
band, and a brother in iixe midst ? You know it would be a moral impossibility ; er&ry
honettnaan in the house fM» that me\t belief as this would- have a saving, refining in-
fluence upon the human heart ; and none but a fiend of darkness could eatij|rely <i(i(|^
gardit

If my fanother ia going to depart from the question altogether, if he is going to talk
tboat the tendencies .of Sjnritoalism, let him show wherein the- pnaciplee are depioval*.
ipngV iuid point out wherein we are made worse by believing wo are sunxian^^ Iqt
tboia we love most Sack weapons as n^ brother uses are illegitiiBate ; thoqgli b^itj
borne in mind that these are the only weapons ever used^and that he who pses them Hi»>
nSQst recklessly, obtains the most applause from the foes of ■Spiritualism* The spuit m§^
pex^eeution exists to-day, as it did txo thousand: years ago ^ and he who will* loudest paHt
^^]>eceptian 1 ** and> ^\ Immorality 1 " will receive tl|e aid qi the p<^u}8r Churclk Ifi»
t)ie popular Church, indeed, there are many good people ; buA there are ako as flagraiit»
iMationa of the precepts of. Christ, asr are to be fixind in the- ' wovki. In one of yaat*
ovn churches, in this citjp, a member was djing for want of foodi She had* three okSM^
dren, one a babe. One of tiie mothers in Israel took » pi^r, and went around talK
inga.iubsoription to pcoouse something for the starving young cmet ef ths(;t poor w:o-
niaiif who was without a t^ent . She went to a membei) of the seme church to which tbil
'poer.woman belonged^ a man. estim^ted tobe wcnrth a hundred thousand- dcdlan^ ta
soiicti aid ; and the professed: follower c^th^ meek andik>«4y Jesiis, weal inta aaotkfev^
iooBiy and brought out a bag from which he took a handftd of ginger snapf, and said, «-^.
H^Boek these in. water, and let the baby sock them*** The physician dectaiied thai- i^
poor 'Woman had not food, enough to supply her babe with milk. The lady went iom
Spiritualist, who si^id he would. aid the poor wopoan, anddid supply her with ibod-ibir
fror weeks, and. paid her house*rent. These church()8- have lost the ^hntof Chrisl^
So far as they ane based upon popularity alona^ witii little regard- fbr principla an^ibr
Qhastianity, so long will I raise n^ voiee again^ them. Hiey >* are like unto w^itedi
wpnlflhreS) which, indeed appeac beautifiiL outj^fard, but are witUn frl) of dead Rien%
hdBMh and of all tsncleanhess.'^ Why^is the popular Church- wdling to strike handii-
tdth the sabble;, to-day, in qiposing Spiritualism ? Is it becauflip the world is conveyfetclii
toi Christianity ? llo ; it is because Christia3rit])r is converted to the world;, they have^
depacted firaa the principles which Christ and the apostles taught

One word in regasd to eyidehce; My brother knoiro that tiwre «re a theusaMd
Aingatrue which he cannot pnrmi All maosfestadons depend npcEn oonditiona Tte
sf j qu ndings and circumstapoes hefe, render it utteriy impossible for us to have oooumt-
aieatioBS^ except, poiiaps, through acertain phase of me^unship, where the tongue or
hmd: only is employed. Christ did not aocomplish hia mn^aolee where sceptieisni^
i^OBnded. My brother has brought in the'samo arguqients that were then adchned^
Mfd the Jews been (fisoussiBg Christianity, to4U(f, they would- have said> -^/* Bo time
tUngi here, to-night.; tnin tiKse stones into bread, and we win believe.** Christ did'
idi perform Ike miracles at their deimakid: and, thereftre^ they laid, there was notrotk^
kaady thing ha dki ^Oome down teqidie.ciosB^ and ^re wfll IbeHeve.'-*- But llkrfbt
«id» ^.Wei^akdiat wa do know, and testify tl^ we have seen.*^ My brother scouts
tie acndence wfaidi I present, as ha doos ev«r]c thing thit is aot in ihe Bible,— and-
%* idso, i^ he doaa n0t know thai it ■ k tka BiMa

%mf mvumnLjan^^ vbo^ MtKni. ' iM

1 ■ ' ' '

^ Ify brother Myer Bi9]bpp Clai^ is ^ Spiritual^

Mr. MiLLBB.— Ib«9 pwdon; Idid not ssf ssf enolif thiag; isaid be ]Midffiig>^
gytod iu> mTeat%adaft4

Mb. Grimes — He isi bp^kMed to Sfnritdaliisra.

liti. MiLLKSL-^l have a letter in my poneaaiQii, .from liim,. wBich I cai^ re^ if
necessary.

Mr. Grimes. — I care nothing for letters. I know. I inqnired in Providence about
it, and was told. Just so it was said that Professor Felton was a Spiritualist. And so
I have been called a Spiritaalist ; and you haye had a qsecimen of my Spiritualisin*

My brother said that mediums could not do any thing wrong, because their mothers
and sisters were around them.

Mr. Miller. — I said that if any thing would restrain them, it seems that that
would.

Mr. Grimes. — I want to know where are the mother and sister of Redman ? Where
were the mother and sister of Hatch ? Where were the mother and sirter <3i Bly, who
is now denouncing the trickery of Spiritualism, but who was once a Sjnritualist, — aad
ci YonVleck, also formerly a Spiritualbt but who now denounces Spiritualism ? Where
are the mothers and asters and dead companions of many of your Spiritualists whom yoii
know to be immoral, — and denounce them its much as anybody else ? lliey complain of
me for speaking of the imnunnlities of Spiritualism. I have touched upon that in the
most general manner, as little as possible. I had the best reason. I could not do it
without mentioning names and going into family matters, which is unpleasant to any
gentleman. I have said their mediums could not produce any of their alleged phe-
nomena : they have answered that I must take the testnnony of some one else, that they
had ^ven them, at some other time.

Mr. Miller. — Such was thQ argument of Jesus Christ

Mr. Grimes. — Jesus Christ never intimated that he had not power to do it; but
their unbelief rendered them undeserving ; and every Christian knows that tiutt is the
explanation of it. i

MR. MILLER.

That may be my brother's condition. I cannot stay upon that point, now ; but I
will state that it is necessary, generally, for us to seek, ere we find, to knock and the
door shall be opened unto us. It is found that we generally get what we are seeking
after.

To-morrow evening, this discussion is to be concluded ; and I do beg of my brother
that he will redeem himself, then, by making some attempt at an explanation.

Mr. Grimes. — Yes, sir.

Dr. Gardner. — Professor Grimes has read what I understand him to say was the
Report of the Harvard Investigating Committee.

Mr. Grimes. — A part of it.

Dr. Gardner. — There never has been a report published, and the committee dare
hot risk their reputation hf doing it; and this Beport is a garbled statement of fiilso-

140 DUCUBIIOir OF BPIBITUiXISlC BBTWXXX

boodf, publifhed, as a ctiUh-^peuny coaearn, bf tiie Motion Courier^ which two-thiids of
the world believe to be the Beport of that InyestigatiDg Committee. It waa written hj
one Geoi^ Lunt Many of yon, probably, know him. There are tome miKtatemeftta,'
tome poative faltelioocb, and many nisrepreientationi. To-morrow aTenrng, if the time
it not exhausted, I shall have afew words to say in regard to that Harrard Inreskigating
Committee's Report, and the reason why it it not brooght forward.

Mb. Milleb. ->- It is in perfect keepbg with the idea of their tendmg in their Beporti
to-night, through a thinl person, Ihcofessor Grimes' son.

EIGHTH EVENING.

TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 18th.

I wish to give, in as brief and clear terms as I can, my idea of the state of this quea-
tion,— which, I am aware, differs Yery much from that of my eloquent friend, here*
And in OTder that there might be no kind of a mistake at this stage of the matter — aa
it were, in closing, — I hare put down my ideas in writing ; and I will read the paper*

Daniel Webster once said that there are some eases .of sach a nature that to be .
gained in any intelligent court they need only to be clearly stated. It may be, he added,
that there are other cases — and that in favor of modem Spiritoalism is one of them—
which may be destroyed utterly by being presented in their true oolors without any
argument, pro or con.

There are three ways in which physical &ctB like those alleged by the Spixitoalists to
elidst may be established or disproved. 1st By the presentation of the fiu^ themselTet
to impartial observers and competent critics, in such a manner that fhey may be thorougUy
dtMs-examined and scrutinized. 2d. By the testimony of competent and credible wit-
nesses who can be directly confronted and cross-examined, and who may be contradicted
by the counterstatements of others who were cognizant of some of th^ circomstanceai
8d. By arguments and common sense, inferences drawn frcnn the nature of things, the
commonly understood order and course of events, and the consistency and coherence of
these with the dfrcumstanccs of the case. In the trial of this cause I ccmunencied by de*
manding competent evidence, such as all^xperimental philosophers, all courts ci justice,
and all arbitrators, require, whose vocation is to detennine important questions by ^
light of evidence and by investigation. I demanded the production or repetition of the
phenomena -^ not of all of them, but a angle one. This was, at first, refused, on the groond
that secondary and inferior evidence was abundant and overwhelming ; then I insisted,
and claimed a verdict in my fhvor if it was not produced. The opponng counsel attempted
to obtain it He stated his terms and conditions. I agreed to them. He afbrwaids
changed the terms ; I still agreed. The experiment was made in his own way, and &iled^
He then claimed that some little evidence was afterwards incidentally elicited from Mrs.
•Coan's experiments. I immediately offered to repeat the experiments again and agdn,
in her own way, and under the same or any otiier reiMOoable ciroomstances and coodi-
tkms. Hiis was refused.

The opposing counsel cmiftued that he could not produce the evidence that comrti in^
Yftriably require, although he declared that such evidence exists all around us.

The reason on which he based this refusal, and confession of inability, seemed to beevft*
dve and frivolous. Certmnly, no court, no board of referees or arbitrators, would admit
llkcan to be reasonaUe.^ They were, that the phenomena can only be exhibited through the
ttgaiusms of susceptible persons, who are easQy disturbed by the noise of a public audience,
and the presence of antagoBistio influence^ aoch m nnist be present on such occanons.

142 X>I8CU88ION OF SPIBITTJiXISM BETWEEN

To this I replied that scores of mediums do, every Sunday, stand before public audiences
and pretend to be moved by spirit-influences. They also invite antagonisms and debates^
and challenge the world to discuss with them. They write and rap in public. Mrs.
Coan, in particular, in whom the oppodte counsel has full confidence, has travelled over
the whole country, exhibiting publicly, when opposed and scrutinized by committees
whom she has invited and defied. ^ I -offeved to surrend^ the whole argument if she or
any other medium would ihadce bn^ rap, dr answer one qitestioii in- the way in which she
pretends to, provided the circumstances were such as to expose deception if any were
practised. Furthermore^- to destroy ike lorce of the objection to; a public audience, I
offered to try the experiment in any place in the city — in darkness or light, in publici
or private.

The opposing counsel was forced to declare — not that he would not, but — ^that he really
could not gWt& ^^ evidence requved. He was therefore under this necessity of alnndolDL*
ingiiis case aUtbjgether, or bf endeavoring to establish it by evidence which h^ admitted
tlMit ahycMfrt would be obliged to exclude. Hiis evidence consists of the testimony of
wiftfYciSlli^'itliO -declare that the3^'tiave had c^vincing evidence presented to their minds.;
Tips. ^evidf^Qce Wjas. given -to the audience by .the mouth of the counsel himself or in
pS^era v^hichr he .tei^fied were genuine, piost f^ which were signed by persons never .
heard of before, and never seen by -the audience. It is an established rule of evidence^ .
t^at, ^e^. te8$imp^y.,of no living witnesses is competent to establish a fact exparte^ when,
tliere is no opportunity for cross-examination, and when counterevidenqe cannot ba
procured to: aliow that the' viUiefses are mistaken, biassed, incompetent, or interested.
Tl^:|u0rQ 'Statement or c^^rtificatey even of ithe most competent witness, will not be tak^
innny{«Qper9tt4 regular trial;. and, although it is taken, daily in common- nui,tters that,
are of little eonseq^ience,. no .one insists, upon it when a regular investigation like the
^r^s6nt48.undert9kei]u The; oply case in yila^oh. exparte or one-sided testimony is ts^en
ip^.Ju^ioijiiJLji^Tefi^^tions, is when it is merely preliminary, to a regular investigationy^as
be6»re a gsand jury or befcnre an exfimining magistrate.

I Jf it is. said that in Madison, . Madison County, N. Y., a certain transaction took
pls^q, and this.i^ certified to by parties unknown to the court, the proper mode of ];»ro*.
ceedingfis to summon alLthe parties who were in the vicinity at the time, and patiently ,
hear all sides, cross-examine all witness^ prove all the circumstances, and then. ^<^
<Hde,;and not until then. Thehupden ofprooi^ in this case, rested with the qpposij^
ocMinsel ; it ^asihis business to bring ^rward exgerimental. proo& of the phenomeiuk
]^.tJuscpuldno^ V® done,, and the: court decided to overjnilemy objections, and ^di^it.
garoL evidence, rhe- should • have .cited oases that took place in this vicinity.

fiife. ' MiLtfiE. -^ Have I iibt ?

.Mr* Gftiiilfts.^ — Wait, my £riend ; I will attend to that Patience is a virtue tUt'I
will beg 169^0 to recommend.

- • rVfThefa they voold - lie jscrutinised, and • iwhen «euntei4estimony eoold be fiMind, i{ p|iy
existed. He should have cited cases which have taken place rso^tly, within a veqr
skdrrtime ) - fbr it is not pi^steneM-ifatait-tfabse maoufeStations are iuncommon. Spiritoiil-
ists boast that Iheyareo^didiy, andahnsst hourly^ oocarrenca, and tiiat they have psoof.
ef this kbd^ in abuadlmee. . Nowi irhat evidence have -tiiey intsipduced. iEirst) tbat^fa-
latiilg to the ooM in Neponast, : in :v<rhich thfc (apposing .counsel hin^lg is thoi priasq^
witaim^ iniwhish L^fit/^^^ he tafft^ iwas spek out in a. maaaeiv tffd under oiycyny|ywft%i
which- were ^^ ihteraiting^ tf we 4mme. tlUtt nothing is left untold: by the OHMng.
pniiiwl ThB<athercMaip titot-«fMr«'6qpui«V.petl(Plii^

L]BO MIDLER AMD PSOF. QfiXJK¥3. . . 149

this city, which transpired about two jean ago, and which were more remarkable, and
better attested, and were enacted under more respectable circumstances, than any other

which he has in^hlicUibd.

>

In &ct, you may say that is the only case.

In ihis case, no one was iuTited to investigate, to detect isand. It was assumed, to
bbgin with, that ftaxid was' out of the question. Mr. Farrar was univerAlly respected,
a deacon of the ehurdh, 8 gientleman of wealth, bf character, and integrity ; and tha
wonders were woirked in his house, tytid with his JatictioB, without pay, and attended witli
much inconvenience. It is ehoi^h to say that most of the mani^Mtations took place in
the daric ; this alone would shut them out as ^yidenee from any proper and regular iii>
TesdgatiOn. But it must be remarked that Mi^. Farrar did not, himself^ act any part in
the matter, except to allow the performances in his house. His respectability, there-
fore, has nothing to do with the case. No one pretended that the actual medium,
Squire, was a man of greht respectability — his character was negative, at the best

TMs case of Squire, was presented here, in a written communication, which mj
friend, the opposing counsel^ seemed to regard as Auffieient to estabUsh all the pretended
facts. But in this, the only x»se in the immediate vicinity, which might afibrd means
for contradiction, prondditially a witness arose, as it were, from the very earUL Dr.
Mattson, a g&ntlemttn whose experience bf lite, and whose medieal skill, qusUi&ed him
to judge clearly m such matters, oSerod himself and ^contradicted Squire, showing
that some of the feats were eaaly ptt'&rihed by jugglery. An attempt was immediately
made to im])eaeh Dr. Mattson, but this failecl utterly,- and his character aj^warr to be;
tinaas&ilablc. !Kext we have the testimony of ProfesscH* £usds, of Harvard, confinning
that of Dr. Moitti^on, and still further inipeachfaig Squire.

Mr. Miller. — I wotdd ask where that testimony of Mr. Bnsds is.

Mb. iGrRiMES. — You will find it in that Report. In addition to this we have the ob-
servations of President Felton, and of Dr. Johnson, agreeing with those of Professor
£ustis and Dr. Mattson, and all of them uniting in ithe ciHiclusion that the manifestations
which they had witnessed were impostures. No ccnnment in this case is necessary, and
no other re<iuires to be reviewed.

I have stated this case Very briefly. Words cannot make this argument any stronger.

»

The ar^rflunent, so much relied upon by my opponent, that the Bible stands upon the
same evidence as Spiritualism, is illegitimate ; for, allowing it all the force which he can
ask, it is only necessary to deny the mhracles and the infallible inspiration of the BiUei
to overthrow his position, for then neither the Bible nor Spiritualism are true.

He is like a man Mrho takes hold of another on the brink of a precipice, and aa^

"You cannot throw me over, because, if I go, you will go toa**

Here is anothci horn to this dilemma.
I

If, on the other hand, we admit the infallible inspiration of the Bible, and the
miraculous character of its recorded events, we are perfectly consistent in denying
their analogy to events which he admits are merely an effect of the natural order of
things.

I regard that arginnent, briefly as it is stated, as unanswerable ; and I am wiiliog''to
Hsk, upk>n th^t pcnnt, any little reputation I have.

144 piscftBSiOK or spiBiruALisk Ustw^bk

•:-. '.

Mr, Chairman^ and Respected Friends : My brother has just &rty*five minutes moTOy
to *' account for the so-called modem spirit-manifestations." The world, during the past
ten or twelve years, has been waiting, waiting anxiously, for an Explanation. Scientific
men haTe gone to work Mid elaborated thdr favorite theories of explanation, and one
hf one those theories have gone down; and others again have been built up, and
they, to6, haVe gone. ' And now you have been invited here,*by posters and ciroulan,
and by invitations from the rostrmn, night alter night, to hear an explanation of these
phenomena. F6i^-five minu^ more belong to my brother ; and in this time, if he
sustains the question before ns this evening, he is to account satisfactorily for these
manifestations. Beally, my friends, shall we get a satisfiustory explanation ? Each
oiie must judge for himsblf or her8el£ Furthermore, the explanation was to be a
pInlosOphical'one; but instead of that, it is a l^al one, standing upon the quibbles^
formalities, and technicalities of law. Now, this ground has been gone over and over,
thoae and again ; and I have something to say, besides reiterating what has been
already incontrovertibly established ; viz., that human testimony, as a law of evidence,
mnst be relied on. Yet, I will very briefly look at his positions again, to-night The
gentleman says that one good evidence, and the first-best is the presentation of the
fhct But suppose it cannot be presented; then what is the next-best evidence, —
and just as good, in a court, as any other? ' It is the testimony of those who witnessed
it. I have raised that paper ; I now drop it This is a &ct ; and though ages may xoii
by. It is still the same. Suppose we come here again to-morrow night, and it is de-
nied; all that is necessary is, to appeal to the witnesses present Now, let it be
borne in mind, that a great pordon of spirit-manifestetions depend upon cireum-
stances, surroundings, and conditions, over which we have no controL We are all c^ us
more or less inspirational ; and one of the most conmion phases of mediumship is the
perception and influx of thought from the interior world. That a medium may stand
up here, and speak eloquently before a promiscuous audience, is very true. Then,
there are other manifestations that could not be produced under the same circumstances.
I have ho control over the spirits. I ciannot command you to come forward here;
neither can I command the spirits to come.

Again^ in regard to this portion, let me reiterate that it is the same with that which
the infidel world has ever taken. If he insists upon my calling spirits to produce these
manifestations, I may, with the same propriety, call upon the gentleman, and upon the
Christian Church, to summon the angel-world again to roll the stone away from the
s^ulchre. The same causes that produced ancient manifestations exist to^lay ; and
according to my brother^s logic, we have a right to cl^um that they shall repeat these
manifestatioDS, or we will reject them. Now, I say that human testimony is reliable.
I was not at Lawrence when that frightful, that terrific calamity took place, yet I have
sujficient testimony to its occurrence. Is it supposed that we are to ^ave a trial here,
according to the rules of law, before we can accredit it ? Did my brother expect, when
he signed the articles of agreemwit in regard to this discussion, that we would prodnce
these manifestations here ? Can he show a single instance in history, where spirit^n-
terooi/rse, or any thing like revelation from the spirit-world, was tried by any tribunal
of an earthly character ? Had they no laws, no courts, in the time of Jesus Christ ?
Why did not the apostles demonstrate the validity of th^ claims ? If they would not
demonstrate it then, by a trial of the whole case, the infidel wwld says this is proof that
they were dbhonest The next-best testimony, the gentleman himself says, is that of

t

LEO MiLLEB AND PEOF. OBIMES. 145

credible 'witnesses. Have I not offered such, and cited as my authority the names of

men living in yoor city ? I presented, here, the testimony of Mr. b Is not he a

credible witness?

[Mb. MTLLEft repeated the statement of Mr. — -'s visit to Mr. Mansfield, aa given
page 89.]

Here is a fact, then, that occurs at home. The gentleman says that these cases most
not be far-fetched, but must occur in our midst, and they must have taken place very
recently. Is it possible that he can stand up before an intelligent audience, atid state,
hdre, that because a fact occurred eighteen hundred, or eight years ago, it is any the
less a fact? If so, then the further we get from the (origin of the Christian dispensa-
tion, the less evidence we shall have of its truth. Does time alter a fact ? If I am to
be censured for bringing in cases which occurred two, or five, years ago, what shall we
say of our clergymen, when they bring in dmilar facts that transpired eighteen hon-
dred years ago V The gentleman says that if these phenomena occur in the daric, it is
prima facie proof that they are not true. No phenomena take place in the daik ! The
reding of the stone from the sepulchre was in the night ; ergo, the statement of it is
good for nothing. Peter was led out of prison in the night ; ergo, we repudiate it, — it
was done under the cover of darkness. Just as if a phenomenon could not occur in
the dark, and just as if we could not so arrange matters as to preclude the possibility
of deception 1 Why, my friends, it does seem to me strange that our brother should
waste so much precious time in going over something that has so little to do with the
question. I have produced facts, here, which have occurred in your own midst, and
yet he has not even alluded to them. It is true, I have given my own testimony, as a
witness of a manifestation ; and I ask you, friends, can you altogether reject this testi-
mony ? No, you cannot, in sincerity and candor. Why, it is only fbur miles to Ne*
ponset. He might have called upon the family of Mr. Southworth, and ascertained the
fact; and. yet, because I have not brought forward the manifestations here,hesayi
there is not the shadow of proof 1 He takes the ground that because he has not seen a
thing, it cannot be true ! I stated, last evening, that I had done with giving facts; bnt
I shall give one or two this evening. And now, one right to the point.

Dr. Gardner is in the house, as one witness; and doubtless there are others who have
witnessed the same manifestations.

Sometime ago, a lady came into this city, a stranger to your community, through
whose mediumship, in the presence of Dr. Gardner, Dr. Bell, and many others, mani-
festations of a most remarkable character took place. The lady's name is Miss Coggs-
well, of Vermont. On her arm, letters have often been seen to rise up in response to
mental questions. One gentleman with whom I conversed in regard to this matter,
told me that ho mentally said, ** If this is the work of spirits, let the name of Jesua
Christ come upon the arm.'' And, in plain, readable letters, as if* red blisters had beea
produced, came up the name "Jesus Christ" Dr. Gardner asked, mentally, for some:
evidence that his brother in the spirit-world was present; and " M. 'G.," the initials ot
the name, came up on the arm. It was then mentally asked, *' How did he die ?^
Presently a figure rose up on the arm, like a human heart, and over that another figfne»
came up resembling a revolver, being discharged in the heart His brother waa shot-
through the heart, by a ball fi*om a revolver. Miss Coggswell, who had just come* into»
the place, could have known nothing of the circumstances of his death. Dr. Gardner
sent for Dr. Bell to visit his house. Dr. Bell came, and was requested to ask somemesi*-
tsd questions, something of such a nature that it would be impossible for any ens t<^

10

11^^ DISCUSSION OF SPIBI7;uyLLJ^lf

guess. what he was thinking of. He di^ sp. The arm. was bfire, a^ pres^inlly a^ i^qjL
came out like a cross, au^an^yther beside it, and afiU another q;06al)elpw it Dr. Gardner
here remarked that he hoped the spirit would give such a manifestation ^as Dr. BeUj^d..
requested. Dr. Bell smiled, and said, *< It is what I asked for in my own mind ; I adLed
that th|«6 cnosiMs abould Jiie made on her- arm.*^ And 'tiiej wefe made, plain and clear.
And in addition to the crosses, a flower, like a rose, came up upon the arm. Hundredl
hare seen th^. woQ^ierful phencHc^Qnj^ ^ere i^ fi^ te^t^niofiy of- Qr, . BelL. It' iavi|<9t
my pWe^^hpi;^, to cl^fW tba^.t^jijese phenjomena. are the wprk oC ipiri¥» but iif»y,Mi»,.
ca41ed *<.8]^iritrm2mifestati(m% it devolves, upon my brotbepq tp 'explain, them ?: I

hi^ye reaid a letter from Br. BeU, i^i wjtiichjhe ssud that they come frf^ somi^ .** unp^^
and occult ppwer in nature ;" yet they are all allied to be spir^tfxumi&dtations,

i w^l giye another case, and then I shall speak no further in r^ard tof^cts. I Jiay^ ,
Tery opportunely come across a fact.thpt will doubtless stagger my brother; £»: ti|e.
witness is h^TQ) and it js his own witness, after all. He h^ several times, during t)iifi
di^uasicm, called upon L^roy Sunderland to bear testimony. Here is a communicaiapn
pi^blished in the Spirit TFor^ and which will be confirmed by Mr. Sunder]|and» the.,
editor and. publisher. I have, not time to read the whole ; it is attested to by several
wil^nesses, and Mr, Sunderland sit^ in front of uf to be catechized and crosfihexaminedf
in.regard to the fa^t My brpther will not reject the testimony of (me to whom he h^
80 (Often referrejd.

<t BPntrnrAL DEMONSTRATIONS.

^ We, th* iinden|g]Qed,,liaTin|; witneued, t^is da:^, at the house of tfr Luroy SunderiMid (No. S8iElk(| 8 (t u M i n
Boston), the following phenomena, deem it proper in this way to makemei^tt^n of tbem.

** When we entered the room, ^ere were some ten persons surronnding a table, eonyeising with the ejMts i
and as many more in the toMu as iqiectators, watching themov«nents (tf the others. Mrs. M. Goopw wm tiw
medium. There wave constant .and Craqoent rappings *^9on the table, and rappings to Tarious utl ingvoiovHi
t^ queatums, all of which were admitted to be emswered eorreetly; and the company exiwessed UmnselTet |MI
being enivrdy'sdtisJUd wHix the answers given.

"Ife saw <o motion of tbii me^ikm which wenM indicate that she had personally, any thing to do wifli fhe
re^fonses glYe9> and we think die oonld not buTe had. The rappioga were maie on the table, witlMNii
ezcep^opf

Aiier this circle had retired, we, the undersigned, surronnded the same table when the following ooevf-
lences were observed : —

'^■1. In answer to the questton if any of our gnardiaA spirits were present, loitd and prompt responses weiv
heard upon the table, the vibratitms of which were distinctly felt by our lurnds; and we axe positive the* Hm*
lOooper did not tonch the table at all.

*'2. We then asked the spirits if they wonld ^ve us some phyidcal manifestations, and we were prompflj,
^aaswered by saps, in the affimative. The table was then immediately moved in various direetiens, from on*
49 ^0 feet ; and, at our request, was quite a numbor of times turned over into the laps of .those sunoiindiiv
:$t. In two instances it was raised entirely from offthefioor, and we are ^osirrvE thaX no human insfntnunUd^
:ityMDas emptoyed in producing these results. For the purpose of varying the experiment, we all took hold of
«iheiop df the table, hddlnig It clear off the floor, in our hands, when it was violently shaken, while yet so sos-
]pen<led, as if its st a n d ard had been sdsed by strong hands ; and it apparently varied in wsight from twaoljy Ao
:two.hxiQdrod pounds.

*^ Among the test questions prt^^tosed and satisfitctorily answered, was one by G. F. Farley, Esq. of Groton^
;Mass,, substantially as follows : *■ What relation is this spirit to me T Ans. — ^ Your brother.* * What mm
.yoiqr glnen name?' Ans. — ^' Perez,* which was spelled out promptly by the alphabet. Mr. Ikrley tlwa
rStated toihe astonishment of the company, that this was hisbrothr's name, and that he died aane tiij jmn.
£ago — facts (Unknown to every other person present.

*\[ Mr Farley,' himself, may bo referred to for the truth of what Is here stated.]

" la the ewning iofthe samo day we met again, with an addition to our circle. [Bsqulre Furlej, of Orotou,
rMid G.' A. SMDoerby, Bsq., of Way land, were present at both settings,] and in the evening, Mr. OooifB M. Hm*
iEeU, Dc. Z. Befors, Moses Babcock, and Dr. L. B. Lartcin, of Wrcntham, were also present. T^ circle i|aa .
-(formed in Mr. Swndcrland^s back parlor, as before, when the following, among other phenomeoa, wwe pto>
wdueed. On bcrfding eaeh others hands, so that no one lumd was at liberty in the room, a centre uMe, aroand
t^htefc w» wei» jj^llm, tflos MAUKD uffnm ihejioorjh* twus, aod tot down with oeuideBiUa ton, ao aa^to

: I^eO XiLLSR AND PROF. GRIMES. 147

Bhalu the floor. Once or tirice the nqm were madei not o& the table, bat with it, the table btiliig need-by the

spiHte, as we were aaeuTed, to rap with on the floor. Five times the table vhu upnt tmi^ turned over^ lo that

It ftill ddewiee upon the floor, with Tlolenee. A small bell, which itood n^n the table, wair mored wlthoat

hmaan hands, from tbrn table, Amr times. Daring the whole of this time, both of lirs. Cooper^ liabda had

bewn held in the hands of two of tha company, etdndfug o» sitting bj her side. Weeinonlyaay timtwetaatii

been prafimndly impressed with the cQuvidloiithat no human agency wliateTer, was used in« the p^oductioii

cf the phMMnens we hate dseerilbed.

<*0. P. KIBBElB, M. ]>. tjp0ikgjkldj Jfiitt.

**Rl7FUSEUIHa, ** **

f NELSON L. ELMRR, <« "

«<THiaDOREM. SMITH, JBMtim.

*' OBOBGiS E. OASKSLL, **

" Z. RODOSRS, ChaHesUnm, JUoss.

<< MOSES BABOOCK, <' "

[To Mr. Sunderland,'] Is this sabstftntially true, as you witnessed it r

Us. SuKDERiJOiD.'— True ias the Book 1 Truet evexy word of it

Mr. MnxER. — [To Mr. Grimea.'] You are at liberty to cross-examine the wttnesB ;
but you will not dare to do it. He is your own witness, brother;

I must say thieit my friend has resorted to a mode of argument which I scarcely ex-
pected from him. Now, let me tell you what he has done. I referred to Mr. Sunder-
land, the other evening, to prove that some persons who were Spiritualists considered
Spiritualism daogeroos, and raised a warning, voice. I misunderstood Mr. Sunderland, in
regard to evil spirits, but I was right on the main point And I am sorry to say that a
litde ooDununication th;»t I received from Mr. Sunderland, I left at home ; or I should
like to read it now. Now, because he corroborated that, the gentleman calls him my.
witneas^ to prove that a table tipped itself over ; as a boy who once happened to tear his
clothes, when his mother was going to whip him said he didn't tear them, — they tore
themselves, when he was standing right stilL Such evidence would disgust imy lawyer
in the Tforld. It not merely violates the rules of law and the rules of evidence. The
rules I have laid down are used not only in court, but wherever questions of any kind
are tried. If the gentleman is a law student, and has studied one month, he knows it
Look in any work on evidence, or any work (Mi logic, and you find that the same rules
used in courts are used ever3rwhere, except in common transactions where people go on
without any method whatever, and which are of no value. The gentleman calls upon
Mr. Sunderland to show that a table was upset I have seen that, myself; I have
seen the perfbrmanote <^jugglera,' and have seen things I cannot explain. And
if I cunnot explain it, I must aay it is SfMrits I If so, I must give up the point, — it is
the work of spirits. Your best pwftNrmaQccs are outdone by the c<Hnmos( jugglers who
perform kat twenty-five cents a head. If one of them puUs eggs out of a hat, and if you
cannot ej^^ain it, it is a spirit : if the eggs were not laid by a spirit, he will ask you how,
then, they came there- He >riU npt let yifo. watch him"; he will not let yoa go behind
him* Let Mr. Sunderland bring forward his table here ; let Mrs. Coo^>to come herei
and if the table moves an inch, I will be burned at the stake. You give us assertion
upon asscartion, as if you thought repeatii^ a thing a thousand timSb would jj^ve it
Yoa s^k to prove a thing, tl^ oasnat- be proved; and make up tiia deficiendes of
proof by . reitefatioft.

I have taken a few notes of Uie gs|it](SiDa&'s rediwrks, andl will reffly to them< ESrst^
in regaixi to '* the toehnjealities of law." The rul^ I have iuisted upon is.notcweQf the i
tedWcalitiesoflaw; itis.thBiittlei|i^yfljp»tt<niifofiiiqqiry> Second, he says, ««-^ If I

148 DISCUSSION OF SPIRFTVALISM BETWEEN

take a piece, of paper, and drop it, — that is a fact /orever; an^ if you come here to-
morrow and' say that you witnessed its occurrence, that is sufficient proof of it." That
is not a parallel case, at all ; and the gentleman knows it ; thoc^h some of your Spirit-
ualists smiled at it. Suppose he says, — " If I take hold of this bullet, it will rise right
up in the air;** and the next night the audience will swear the bullet rose— ^ what do I
care for that. ** Do you not believe that audience ? " Be so kind as to let that go up
again. How many men must swear to you, before you believe the multiplication table
lies ? Yet " you must not reject human testimony I **

Mb. Miller. — We do not claim to do these things oiu'selves, but that they are the
work of spirits.

Mr. Grimes. — I don't care who does it, if it is only done. If the Devil does it, let
us have it.

Mr. Miller. — Can my brotl^r give us any process by which we can bring these
ephits into court ?

Mr. Grimes. — No ; it does not belong to me. He must bring m his own witniSsses. *
I will let him have a subpoena. - .

Now, let me give hun a case. When Galileo, the great philosopher, was a young
man, long before he discovered the telescope, he denied the authority of Aristotle.
Aristotle said, that if a large piece of lead and a smaller one were droppied together,
the larger would reach the ground first Gralileo said it would not. The dictum
wals laid down in a big book, written by as great a man as my friend Mi*. Sunder-
land — and I believe we are friends, if I do not believe his table moves iEiround
in that style. Galileo said, — What care I for your book; try the experiment. So
they ascended the leaning tower of Pisa, and dropped the weights at the same time ;
and every one except Galileo expected to see the larger one fall the faster. But they
reached the ground exactly together. The learned men said it was not fair, and pro-
posed to try it again. It was tried again, but the weights would come down just exactly
together. All the witnesses in the world were useless. Now, my friend tells us a thing
a diousand times more incredible : he tells us the story of Dr. Bell, with a great deal
of unction — and forgets to state that Dr. Bell, after witnessing all these things, declares
that spirits have nothing whatever to do with them.

Mb. Miller. — Do you believe that Dr. Bell saw these things on the arm ?

Mr. Grimes. — Oh, I have seen worse things than that

Mr. Miller. — You acknowledge, then, that you cannot account &r it ?

Mr. Grimes. — The gentleman continually implies that if I cannot account fcxr a
thing, it follows that it is the work of a spirit According to that, I have got to explain
all the universe. The moment that I fall short of omniscience, that moment Spiritualism
is true. If all nature can show any thing I cannot understand, Spiritualism is true. The
very argument of the ancient Greeks : when it thundered and lightened, it was a spirit — -
and that ihis the first that was heard of spirit-rappings. If they did not know what
gave the magnet its properties, it was a spirit As science has advanced, the spirits
have receded into the dark caverns ; as religion has held up her bright torch, spirits have
retreated, and now their place of abode is very narrow. And these colleges which my
brother so hates, and has so much reason to hate, and that college at Cambridge, with
the noble man at its head— and we ought to tibank God for both — let that college, and
its sister colleges, go on, and the spiritei will be scarcer and scarcer. There is a natural
antagcmism betwean that iiustitatibii and its profosson, and Spiritualism. I dared the

LEO MILLEB AITD PROF* G&XMES* 149

SjnrituaKsts to inTestigate. I did not dare them to make assertions ; I knew they could
do that ; but investigation was what I wanted. What did Galileo say ? He had faithfully
tried to ascertain, by experiment, the truth. Did he try to prove the truth of his the-
ory by a witness? No; he would not have brought one of a thousand witnesses. He
said, — Let us repeat the experiment. Bring in Mrs. Coan, your friend whom you
complain that I called a humbug — and I certainly did, — and give us the manifesta-
tions.

Let me read an editorial report of the Boston Herald^ copied from the Herald of Sat-
urday morning, April 15th, 1859.

" TwcKthtads of the capacity of tbe Melodeon was filled hurt erwilng. to test the nlatlfa oieritt of ao-oaUed
l^Mtiud manifestations, as exhibited hj Mrs. Ada L. Ck>an, and M. Y. Bly. ... At the oatset, the lady
went throngh with her manifestations in pr ese nce of a committee of three tinpn|}iidioed genttemen, selected
hy the audience. After she had concluded. Mr. Bly iterated and perfermed the same pheooamia, in a manmsr
equal, if not superior, to the lady ; at least sueh was the mdict of the committee and andienee. Bly esplalnsd
how he performed the tricks, as he called them, and the affair wound up with lenuirks ftom the platform by
Mrs. Goan and Mr. Bty. Mrs. Coan bore testimony to the Ikimess, candor, and honesty, of Mr. Bly, and for
the information of her hearers said that since Bly^ arriral in Boston, he had been the means of driving all the
advertised mediums from the city. Nine-tenths of the so-^called spirit-manifestations she was satisfied were
impositions, practised by mediums themselves, and she proceeded to cite indUTidual cases where die had diiooT-
ered impostors, many of whom were among the most prominent in the world of S^ritnaUsm'*

That is enough. Bly and Mrs. Coan, before I came out publicly in Boston, she influ*
enced by a spirit, in or out of the form, he influenced by the love of investigation, had
this public meeting ; and what she did, he did. She acknowledged he was candid and
fair ; and yet, he could do all that she did. Now, how do you account for that? I
offered that same woman, when performing in one of the towns near the Cape, five
hundred dollars, if she would do one of the things they said she had done every night
They all said she had done it a thousand times ; but I asked that it should be done.
And while I am in the city, and alive, you may wake me up at ten o'clock at night,
and, if she can answer a angle mental question, provided I can only fix it so that she
cannot cheat, I will give you all I have, and my note for some more.

I wish to read another paper. I hold in my hand a conmiunication from Dr. Matt-
son, which is as fidlows: —

'' BosTOir, Tuesday, March 18lh, 1800.

"PaoFESSoa Obdcss, — JDeor Sir: I desire to ask you a question, and I prefer this method of getting
your answer, as I do not wish to disturb your audience.

*' First of all, I wish to state that my account of the experiments of Squire was correct, to the best of my
knowledge, in eyery essential particular. I say every essential particular, because I hold that it nuittered but
little whether a part of the watch hung out of the mitten, or not, or whether the experiment was performed in
a dark or a lig^t room. It is enough to know that it was performed with the hands under the table, where the
fyes could not see, and therefore the room might be light or dark, just as Mr. Varrar, or his proteg^, Squire,
might fency. But in the table experiments, it is admitted that thenxun was dark; for here, unlike the case of
ttw watch experiment, a dark room was essential to the success of the table tricks.

" That an in telligent man should throw open his house for the reception of cltiaens, to witness experi^aaents
in ^>irituaUsm, whieh are to be performed in the dark, is certainly oneof the marvels <rf^ the nineteenth eentuiy,
and goes very &r to eclipse Salem witchcraft itself.

** I had no motive for misrepresentation. I am tiie kst man in the world, who would minrepreBMit a feet for
the sake of sustaining a theory. I am not the enemy of Spiritualism. I have many exodlent Mends among
the Spiritualists whom I respect and esteem, and whUe I have always admitted that some jhjiAoal nianiihsti»-
Hons may be true, for aught I know, although I m^t be unwilling to refer them to the aganey <tf spirits, yet
X hold that it is my right and privilege to expose such trickery as that of Squire's, even tiiough It should be
enacted under the roof of one of our respectable citiiens.

'* The medical profession are not the opponents of ^irituaUsm, as Bfr. Bflller asserted last night. I do not
know of a physkdan who is to be regarded as an opponent. It would not be to the interest of the professkm
to oppose Spiritualism. If half of the population, or m<Mre, are Spiritualists, the doctors would be very foolish
to quand with theai, and thereby lose their friendship and patronage. With regard to drua;iag, to whkb I

150 DISOCSMOXr OV SPISmTAIAIK iBrnVIEEN

am M nmeli oppoiad t^ Ur. HiUar, X.ma#t a97 ibat ^be qw^iM pt s^ff wUqh flOmft «f ;(h« q^tii*! do^jtoii
aod doc tr wi B y lan^ fift inH^age bottles and lAckagBS, js a £iir II^ktDh |br the Tile drags of any <dd doctor, thaifc
haa eir«r Uired alnee the time of Paracelsus.

*^ Apropos oif Spiritaai doctresses. I had a lady patimt, some yenN^ ago, nbo in^ cfying •f eowmmptfoB.
I told berhttsbaod thM Ab conki not live. Qe eaUed in afpiiitiial deo^rtssyWhofrofeafed to beforemed -tgr
fbe spirit of a oel6)>rated .physician out of the farmland saiil th^t I i^as jqist^en al)out th^ lun(^ of the
patient being diacyued, that her. lungs were . perfectly sound, but that h^ Iflghts .were disease^* T!h\a cdebrated
physician fn spirlt-lan^ must have been i ' bd^t, pidrtteulay star,' not ^ know that '^ <iii^ and Jigktt
meant tiie same thing.

^SButftocome to the P9ltn% wilh.irhicb.Is^^rted. When I put my written statements (nto.ypur hajx^, \jx gela-
tion to the experiments of Squire's, which I did without the suggestion Qf any living mortal, and desiring aK
the same time that my name should not be made public, I did not dream that any SpWturii si w ould endeavor
to weaken m]r;tsetimoBy Ibgr aai>ailiqg.my oharaetw. I supposed that the cauM w;9A.quiJ« tpo stroi^ to require
tooh a miserable alternative. Tet, you said last -night, that a %>iritiia)ist came to you on Saturdaiy nighty
tfter ttie diaeasaioa had eloaed, and qK^eagnlnst my character, referring you to the Merchants -Sank. Xhlfl
was a stab in. the dark ; it waa a moft unmanly and wicked assault, because, it gave me no oj^ortunity to deftn^
nyself; and but Ibr yotirmagnanimity , sir, in calling upon me, the ftucceediog day, and asking, as you did^ with
a great deal of concern and anxiety, evidently, depicted in your countenance, whethi^ th«w wsusauy truth in
the statement, I should, in all probability, haveboen ignorant of the outrage until this moment. I told yoa
to go. to the Merehnats 6apk and inquire for yoqrself^ without apy agency of mine ; and with a true m^iiliQeps,
which J shall -ever remembw, you sent one of our most esteemed fellow^citixens on the mission^ aud his aosweri
exonerating me from all censure, has already been announced in this hall, and does not require repetition.

" The report abo^t the^rcbante !E|ank, )et me say, was put into cixculatipn by certain men, who, in oer<
tain business transactions, fleeced me out of all the money they could, and then entered intoa l^al conspiracy
torob n», if possible, of ^ every dollar I possess^'' Not satisfied with tiheae doings, thsy put the story of
^ Mexcl^^n^* J^}fi iinto circulation, witb .t)ie riew of doing me still fUrther injury. I did not suiQ»oae it
possible, however, that .any respectable person woald have taken up the slander of these despicable mta, and
related it privately to yon, without knowing whether it was true or ftlse, for the purpose of injuring ipy wi>
iacity, merely beoauae I had ventured to teet&Qr.honeetiy agavist the impostures of the notorious Squire. ^

" I therefHre cMl for the mtme qf thlit l^ritualist, that it may be entered upon the record, as a part of ttM
history of Spiritualiapi in Boston. Teiy reipeetAiny,

*^ M OBEis Mattsoh."

I .Qkifst Bay tiiat I do not iJunk it h necessary for me to giye the name. I (io i)oi see
jthe good to l^ atjtalned by it. The fact is, that Dr. MaUson's character is sn^cientljr
exonerated. So it seems to me ; ai^d I do not see the ^eed d getdngup a private
quarrel

Dr. Mattson. — I have had a communication from the BpLnitsb^aodtbeyJ^avenipped
out the uBfo^ of Mr. Farrar ; but as he is a respectable man, I suppose they are mis-

After all this care for the doctor, it will go before ^o vtoiAd that he iaan honest
}, suppose ; but I ask, in all conscience, if our precious time is to be Toasted in pettifbgging
^ c^se thnxigh in jthis manner ? What relevancy, under heaven, has that letter, to tbe
question here to-night ? I am surprised at Uie short-sightedness of my brodier,iniatro-
4ucing a ^tterpf this character, to defend the character of a man, here, as if there
.was no other redress. There .ai*e other ^^ courts " bosidc tjiis, where iujured reputatio;ipt
may find redress. Indeed, I cannot find language to express my dissatisfaction at /|be
;iray m wj^ch the discission has jbebn carried on, — at dragging in, as on this and
.ether eveiwigs, statoment^ of this kind, jto establish tl^o .charac.ter of some man. If he
^ an honest maa, thait- will be suSeient, withoot its going before the entire, werlc) tbait
there is a Dr. Mattson, in Boston, who 13 honesty though in eertain people's eytM it
^M)ci98 to appear otherwise. It 4loes no credU po my brother or his cause.

. Mr- CrjRiMKa. — It ought to be stajted, ju^t herOi that the attobck on I>r. Mattekm^g
ehanicler #a9 made by themselvesL

LEO HILLEiEK AHD FBOF.* OBIUE8. l5l

Mil. MnxER. — I beg your pardon : if you mean me, I bave made no sucli attack.
I never made an attack upon that man's character, in my life. It was altogether out-
nde of the discussion, and off from the platfimn. In no way haVe I insinuated that hui
character was not perfectly good.

Mb. Gbucbs. — You have just done it

Me. Milleb., — Wherein have I done it?

Mb. Gbimbs: — Ton said many pec^le thought he waa dishonest

Mb. Millbb. — I b^ your pardon; but / did not say sa Far, &r be it from
me, ladies and gentlemen, to attack the private character of anybody. I have
not done so, anywhere in this debate. If there has fallen an expression from my
Hps, tliat would seem to imply any thing of the kind, it has been nusconstrued
'and misapplied. The reli^on which Spiritualism teaches me, is to place confidence in
humanity; to exercise charity, love, kindness, and forgiveness towards all. He is my
brother, and I have no right or disposition to charge him with dishonesty, and have not
intentionally done so, during my remarks, whatever may have &llen from my lips.

But a word, now, to this discussion. The gentleman has acknowledged that he cannot
explain these manifestations, or, at least, he has allowed you to infer it " Suppose I
cannot account for them? — I have seen worse things than that on the arm," he says.
!Now, Dr. Bell declares that he has seen a certain phenomenon, and it claims to be th^
work of disembodied spirits. I call upon the professor, here to explain it; and if he
cannot, it does not necessarily follow that it is the woHl of spirits. He has repeatedly
at^buted to me the remark that if he cannot account for these things, they are the
work of spirits. I take no affirmative groimdJs, here, upon this question. Ho has as-
sumed the affirmative portion, and promised to give a satisfactory and philosophical ex-
planation of these modem manifestations ; and I stand hero simply to reply to him. I
bave presented facts, and asked for a solution. The time has nearly passed by. Twenty-
five minutes, only, remain for an explanation. Will he attempt it in this time? Tho
&cts exist, unless he does altogether set aside human testimony. He did, at last, r^ect the
testimony of the witness whom he has repeatedily called upon to confirm his statements
Were this a judicial trial, there are liundreds and thousands of witnesses who would
come in and testify to what they do know and have seen. There are scores in this
liouise, who will lay f Heur hands upoti their hearts and testify that ti^ey have seen spirit^
manifestations, and some who have seen spirits, face to face. But do we expect in an
investigation of this kind, that a lady or a gentleman is to go be&re a j ttstkie of tiie
peace, and swear that he or she has seen spirits ? Zachariah sa3rs an angel appeared
to him. Was ijiat an^l 'brOt^bt into court ? ISTo : nothing of tlie kind. I^eter, Jain^
hbd John, kaid tkey iH^W l^pirits. But did they Ibring the apirits before any earthly tiibii-
nal, to establish the fact ? No, never. Now, there are fens of thousands 'who testify
they have seen these things, and talked with spirits, face to fiice. I say tkev testimrfoy
is as good, to^lay, as that of individuals who lived hundreds of years aga And this my
bMther caili'not c6ntfoveH. He says, if the Bible is hot iiiifaAible, it is not to be lielied
ttpoih in t)te least That does not ^Itow. If a man la not infallible, can he utter no truth ?,
If a book Is not infUlibie, does it contain ho truth ? 1 take up thib tiistory of &6me, and
t teiA of ttolnulus and lEtemus being suckled by a wolf. Elveiy one rejects that as a
■ iUbJfe. liie general &Wtory of bomie, however, we all rely upon, t believe those aiir
Ciehi Witnesses test&ed to the best of their ability, and that they spoke ti^thfully,
WltaiB^ve^ may tuiVe been 'itisSr iiibral chaincier, I can see, in re^idiis '' ^

152 DISCUSSION. OF SPiniTUALISM B^XHTEEN

dence that they attempted to impose upon the world. Yet, I can iee that, after tho pas-
sage of so great a length of time as lias elapsed since the occurrence of the events theze
recorded, there is great danger of misintevpretatiou and interpolation. One orthodox
'sect, the Baptist, have a translation of the Bible, in which some twenty-jdve . thousand
corrections have been made from King James' translation ; and yet we are told that the
Bible is infallible — in every particular true. I have said that the wonders rccordfed in
the Bible are mainly true. They were not . miracles, however, iu the theological sense
of the word. The angels rolled the stone from tlie sepulchre. If I raise this paper, it
is not a miracle ; means are employed. Was it a miracle, if God employed a spirit out
of the body to roll that stone away ? They had to conform to conditions then, as now.
When Daniel was to sec visions, he fasted. Christ used clay to give sight to the blind.
Why did he use it ? There was evidently virtue in it, or Christ wasted his time in a
senseless manoeuvre. But because these wonders are above our comprehension, it
does not follow that they arc'mirac-les. He cannot find any proof in the Bible, that
they are tiot according to the laws of nature ; he has only the assumptions of a part of
the theological world.

I have not introduced, in my statement of facts, a millionth part of what might have
been given. Individuals tell me, daily, of facts occurring in their own private homes,
which I should be glad to present, had we time and permission. A lady, now here in the
liouse, told me of a most extraordinary manifestation which she had witnessed, in her
own home, but added ; *^ I cannot bear that my name should be dragged before tlie
public, neither is my husband willing." So there are tliousands who shrink from this
iiotoriety ; and yet they will tell you, privately, what occurs in their own domestic circles,
through themselves and their children. All this which comes from our neighbors, our
brothefs and sisters, is by the gentleman rejected, and the character of our mediums
treated in the most uncharitable spirit He has denounced nine-tenths of our trance-
mediums as impostors, and, it would seem, solely for the reason that the manifesta-
tions will not come within the scope of his narrow-coiitracted theory. I have called
upon him, here, to-night, to interrogate a witness upon a given fact, —r his own witness,
— and he rejects the testimony in toiOy as unworthy of the least evidence. He is here,
on the affirmative of this question, to explain the phenomena* I am not hore to assert
that these are spirit-manifestations ; I assumed this position, on the, first question, and it
is for the public to judge how well it was sustained. He has now ' assumed the affirm-
ative position. And on the last evening, in the speech preceding his, last, he informed
us that it is a very difficult task.

Mb. Gehc&s. — I did not

Mr. Miller. — He said, " I have seen worse things than that ; " which implies that
he has seen other things equally unaccountable. And the fact that he does not ezplain
them, or attempt to, is proof that he cannot %

Mr. Grikss. — I did sa

Mr. Miller. — If he could, thousands would rise up and caH him blessed. Why,
sir, thousands upon thousands have tried it, and it has amounted to nothing. And now,
he has taken this position of denial, denying aU the facts, except certain mental
manifestations, and these he rejects, except so &r as they can be produced by
such mediums as he can develop. But he has not even explained how he makes
the mediums which he boasts of so often, nor why we are to take their evidence
that they are in any way influenced. I can find hundreds of individuals who will (My,

LEO MILLER AND PROF. GRIHSa. 158

that he did not affect them in the least ; that when Professor Grimes told them to hold
up an arm, and declared they could not take it down, they cotdd take it down, just as
well as not, but were practising deception; and that when he made them wiite, they
were simply deceiving him, and were not affected, mesmerically, in the least. I call for
positive proof, brother ; for you say we cannot take the testimony where there is a po^
ability for cheating. Can you do a single thing that cannot be imitated ? Not one,
fiiends. He may call forward hb psychological subjects and influence them ; he may
mesmerize a hundred, but ho cannot do a single thing that I cannot imitate right here,
on the platform ; and he knows it : but is that an argument against the fact of mes-
merism ? No : but now suppose that Mrs. Ada Coan comes here and produces the
manifestations, aiid another person imitates them, — is that an argument against the fact
that raps and other manifestations really occur ? lie cannot go to sleep on this plat-
form ; And yet I could imitate it. He cannot produce delirium tremens, or become, at
pleasure, insane. I challenge him to do it He may have twenty-four hours, and he
will ML And yet any one may imitate all these realities. Do you not see that a cowdh
terfeit rather pre-supposes a genuine ? Let me say of Dr. Bly, he believes in Spiritual-
ism, in the Spiritual philosophy ; but he believes many of the apparent manifestations are
the results of trickery, because he can imitate them. The gendeman cited Mr. Yon-
Yleek as a witness against Spiritualism. Mr. YonVleck has given me a letter, to-day^
wMch I will read : —

t* Bonoir, Maich 18th, 1860.

"Leo MnxEE, Esq., — Sir: — Proftssor Qrimtf ftatod in the Melodeon, la«t evening, the 12th inst., that I

had denoanoed Spiiitoallflra and SpfaltnallBts. Ibc|; leave, ttiroagh you, to correct that statement. I 4b

mat demmnoe SpkituaUim or the 8|>iiitaaliite aa a olass ; but I do denoonea certain pnfissed spirit mediOM

i^hon I know to be impostan. Ibeliere diaembodied spirits can hare intercoarse with mortals, satisfiMtorf

eridenoe of which has been ailbrded in my own experience. Bespectfolly,

** W. L. P. VohVlbok.
«tIdollaua,B«4.»

So it seems that he has not denounced it, or if heliad, it would prove nothing. He
aays he believes in spirit-intercourse, though he does not believe in a certain class of

the manifestations. Professor M says, " I reject a great portion of the alleged spirit

manifestations.'' Yet he believes there are facts that demonstrate Spiritualism beyond
all question. He rejects many of them, as he rejects any thing else that is not sufficieotlj
proved. I say that I reject many pretended spirit-manifestations, and am willing. tp
acknowledge that deception has been practised ; I am as willing to acknowledge this as
any person. But does this destroy the fiict that other and genuine manifestations have
been produced ? Not in the least Hundreds know they have. Here are private
Hunilies who have these manifestations around their tables. In Laroy Sunderlandli
house, hb daughters were the mediums; and the bishop in an adjoining city, of whom
I spdLO last night, has two daughters who are mediums. There are thousands and
thousands of cases that might be given, where there is no earthly motive for deceptoon.
AEter all that has been said of Mr. Redman, we have testimony here from Dr. Bay,
and Dr. Bell, and others^ that wonderful and inexplicable phenomena were pro-
duced through him as a mediunL He may not be above temptation to deceive. I havOi
myself, detected deceptioa in mediums. Does it prove that the other manifestations an
untrue ? Persons have told me, as I have said, that they have pretended to be under
the influence of my friend. Professor Grimes, when, in fact, they were not in the least
affected. But. I have myself, tried the .truth of psychology, and know thai persons may
be genuinely psychologized. Mesmerism came first, and then clairvoyance, paving ihA
way to the higher law of spiritual manifestationSi^ ,

*»

15*4 DISCVBBIOK OF BPHftlTl^Atito BETWEEN

MR. ORIMfiS.

The gentleman lias brought forward my experiments. They are perfectly to tlie
point. The fact is, when I have performed experiments in mesmerism, I have always
taken the ground that an experiment cannot be made satisfactory to an audience. 1
have never asked an audience to believe, on the strength of the experiment)} wbiek 1
Hihere performed. I began, at Mercantile Hall, the oth^ night, by saying that I did
not ask them to believe it, — that to do so, upon the evidence ot whdt they there saw,
'was in violation of the known rules of philosophy. When a main says he is mesmer-
ized, he may be humbugging ; and the only evidence, to a medicsd man, is that )m
liands grow cold ; and sometimes even that symptom may deceive. I say, witk the
utmost seriousness, to this audience, that when you perform an experiment in meaner-
ism, the testimony of the person mesmerized must not be taken, at all. I have always
said so. I said so in my book. In science, t have always taken that grouhd. In ex-
perimental science, every one knows, we must depend upon the production of the &6t8.
And the Spiritualists began by putting their theory on the ground of experiment The
world will be glad to hear that the Spiritualists have acknowledged that die phenomena
cannot be reproduced, and that they must prove their doctrines by assertions, and not
l)y showing the manifestations themselves.

I have said there weris vairious ways in which to arrive at a correct conclusion, and
one was, to view the whole matter in the light of the nature of things. And ijf you
take this Spiritual philosophy and view it in the light of common sense, as a body, and
Inquure its consistency or inconsistency, I think it will j»^ve somewlhat iuterestii^. I
iiave therefore embodied, in a paper, the creed of the Spiritualists^ to give you an idea
%€ it, as clear as i dan, to thiA; yoti may judge of the thibg ste you ihiijr judge of it imiii
.by looking to see what hiis belief is.

The creed of the Spiritualists is not set forth in any regular and '^^^st^itiaticiF^oricthat
I know of; and when I have been called upon, as I frequently have, to give a summary
'>df its pirincipal atti<:les, I hard been unable to 'd6 iM>. Theif views seem t6 be e^<deed-
Ingly cofatradictdry. I haVe, thertfoi^, diirftig this diseo^ion, endeavbred to gaOi^,
-^Ktti books, and from my eloquent opponent, tbe reqiiiishe materials, and have to^g&ii
%6ttie qf ihem in as regular a taaturer ^ 1 cotild. I ought to ertate th&t one 'dr fvro {xmM
"tltt derived from Ins discburse'defiveted dn Sunday afteiUtxm, in llhis '[^e, On ithldk
^dccssion I attended at his specml imritBtion.

Artick 1. The SpiritaaHstt, as re^rewmted by my (^pmenl) and by theii^ bddks aaiA
aUndiams, belitf««o the Bible, and have gfeist ifevtfrenoe fer it^ fenei^;^ ; but tire GM'df
iAbraham and Isaac and Jacob is <a bafbamus God^ iin akiimal, ^ brtAe.
: 2. Hie sun and moon that stood still at tiie command of Joshna, wefe only tifaeiie Adk
irta^ painted on banners.

J. The miracles mentioned m tlie BjM««fl todkpblce M H^'d iHscorMH b«t'%«f^
-pradvoed by tiie operatiea of mere Awttirlil la^.**^<tf toiBrtib^ the serpent^-' lUe IffiMI
jpeakbg medium *— i^oke by a natwnl law ni fepeteh^ Balaam's as* waft iitfMer W^
#«m, who spoke, in * trance state, by die Ame law whkA ittiq^weii dlMeiii medStiUH
Thb stole was roiled from ti^ tepulc&te wtthdul tvoOMhi er meeltattie^ <Ei{;en>;y» hf %
iMttol law^ and not by a ikiiraela.'

ik Christ was a nataral and illegitimate Maof Ii4&ittied iMUtttt irlio^dteeitieii tat

That was also advanced, here, on Stfttdlky;

IVO MILLER Am) ^IKOV. GSIMSS. ISS

Mr. Milleb. — I say to my brotbc^, it is a base and false niisrepreflentatioii of mj
discourse here last Sunday afternoon. I said that Jesus Chris^ instead of being an
^^itimate child, was the legitimate ofispring of a human father and a human mother,
fiow can any man know any thing of the legal legitimacy of Christ ? I did not say
the God of Jacob and the God of Isaac was a brute. I smd their highest ideal of God
was their highest ideal of man, magnified, that their conception of Deity was that of a
Crod of anger and wrath ; and their own histoxy demonstrates this fact

ItfB. Obimkb. — A Gkxl of animalism, of pride, of blood ;-*-that was the tiyle. I
do not wonder, in conscience, the gentleman is adiamed oif it

5. Science is tending to infidelity and materiiEdism, and the Christian churches are lill
tending in the same direction.

6. The beau ideal of a saint in this new religion is St. Thomas Paine, who my oppo-
nent declared, on last Sunday, was never surpassed in intellectual power, moral grea^
ness, and true piety ; that he deserves the gratitude of our country to a degree that
leaves Washington in the shade.

Mr. MrT.LgB. — I never said sa It is grossly misrepresented, the whole of it

Me. Grimes. — I declare be placed him above Washington, entirely. There am
ctiiers here, who heard that discourse ; and I mad^ a mimite <^ the fbct

7. The revelations and miracles of the Bible are not more sacred^ and not half as re*
liable as those of the Davenport boys and the Fox girls, the letters and pictures of
Bodgcrs and Mansfield, or the manifestations of Sqnire, Coan, and Redman.

^. If any of the mediums are detected in tricks or falsehood, the manifestations thus
exposed are to be rejected ; but all their pretensions and tricks which are not detected
are to be regarded as genuine.

9. If any sceptic, or opponent of Spiritualism, demand proofs such as are required in
all cases among experimental philosophers and in courts of justice, he is to be regarded
as an unreasonable heretic, whose very presence prevents/the sprits from performing;

10. Tlie evidence upon which this new dispensation isfounded consists of the assorlbns
cfA vast multitude of people, that they have witnessed, and do daily witness, wonderfiil
lihinga, which cannot be exhibited under circumstances that admit of detection in case of
fraud, nor when it can be scrutinized and cross-examined, nor when proper counter-
evidence can be obtained.

11. The marriage bond is obligatory just so far only as it is convenient andagrees^le
to both pai'ties, and while no other affinity intervenes to lessen its hold.

12. ^Morality and religion <;onsists in the natural promptings and iflsnations of the
hu^ian mind and the individual judgment, independently of all institutions, revelatioos,
and expeiicnces of the past.

We liave Jiew revelations.

13. The Spiritualist believes that God himself is sul^'ect to the same naturallaws
ihat govern matter, and, therefore, cannot save any one from punishment who disobeys
these laws ; consequently, though his mercy be infinite, his power is so limited that he
bannot work a miracle to help himself or any one else ; prayers are therefore useless,
and forgiveness liopeless. Human beings are but parts of a universal system of machinery,
actuated and controlled by an irresistible and inexorable faie, like diat recognized by
the ancient heathen as inferior to God and man.

14. Thesj)irit8or2lilA8indid,Wtiihen,childx^aaidbf SeAthl&i^pd^

166 DISCUSSION OV SPIBITUALISlf BETWEEN

animals that have lived from the Silurian period of geology until now, not only in this
world, but in the moon, and in the innumerable planets and stellar worlds, in the regions
of infinite space — all these spirits have power to visit and revisit this world, and mani-
fest themselves by moving ponderable objects, and especially oy moving hands and
tongues of female mediums, and inspiring them to give utterance to ideas which cannot
be obtained through mere mortal agency.

15. Though wc must acknowledge that nothing new which is of the least value has beea
advanced by modem mediums, neither in science, nature, art, nor theology, — though
inost of the ideas and language are trashy, weak, silly and ridiculous, and much of it
false, malicious, and immoral — even though it purports to come from Plato, Socratefli
Washington, or even from Christ — this apparent inconsistency is perfectly con^stent,
and harmonizes beautifully, with the harmonial philosophy.

16. The reason why most of the communications received from spirits are so low,
sensual, and devilish, is because they proceed from the lowest and meanest class of
•ptrits. The reason why most of the communications are false and dangerous, even
when they purport to come from the best and truest characters that have lefl this earthy
is because lying and wicked spirits have the power of passing themselves off for good
spirits, and we have no means of knowing the good from the eVil. Tlie good spirits that
C(»nmunicate with mortals arein^rior in number and power to the evil ones; even God
himself cannot help us, because the spirits are governed in their operations by natural
laws which he never miraculously suspends for any purpose whatever. When, there-
fore, the conditions are right, we are liable in this world to be tempted, tormented, and
misled, by evil spirits ; on the same principles that enable mosquitos and snakes to bite us
when we venture into the swamps in the month of August. Just as by a natural law the
shark devours the shad, the vulture pounces upon the dove, or the cat takes pleasure in
tormenting and then destroying the mouse ; so do swarms of ferocious and vulture-like
spurits infest the air, the water, and the earth, to feast upon the miseries of man and ex-
ult in the destruction of his happiness —

[Mb. Milleb. — Is not that in the creed of die Church ?

Mr. Grimes. — That is the very doctrine taught by Spiritualists — "]

inth tin horns, fiddles, guitars, pianos and tables ; but when the light returns they hide
diemsclves again in their infernal caves until the conditions are once more rendered
congenial to their dark natures.

1 7. When a man has been very wicked in this world, and has delighted in tormenting
and injuring his fellow-men during his mortal life, he will at death go to the world of
spirits, and his jumishment will conast in his being made perfectly happy by the gratifi-
cation of his fiffidish nature there, and he will take special delight in hovering around
the scenes of his earth-life and doing all the mischief in his power to his f>est friends, jnst
as he did in this world. . During his whole career he will only be acting in accordance
with the natural laws of his being, and therefore must be regarded as a very interesting
and ipnocent individual.

18. Those who are learned in harmonial philosophy, understand that the other
world is like this, only more so ; that just as, in this world, there are some men and some
animals that prefer darkness to light, when they manifest themselves to their victims;
80 there are nocturnal spirits of hyena and owlish natures, who, when they find
congenial mortal spirits, produce through them many wonderful manifestations in dark*
ened rooms.

Now, ypu may think I have drawn thu with a view of throwing ridicule over the

tEo MiLLsn AND psor. oRnrss. 15T

Spi^tnalists. Upon my honor, I have drawn it as I hare heard them teach it And I
can substantiate the whole of it by their writings, by their speeches, by what I have
heard the mediums say. I have heard a woman, — I can't think of her name, now — > it
was a woman with a tremendous voice — stand up, in Norwich, and ridicule the blood of
Christ, ridicule the cross of Christ, and ridicule the atonement, and say she did not
need any atonement. She was one of their strong; mediums. I appeal to any one in
this audience, who has heard these mediums, to say if they do not teach such doctrines*
To 'such an extent is this the case, that Christians who have, attended these meetings
hoping to obtain some information^ find all run down into one perfect storm of blasphemy.
This is notorious ; and in drawing up this creed, I wanted to show that this whole thing
is &lse, on every principle. I wished to use the reductio ad ahsurdum; for when such
thi;igs are taught, and put together as I have here collected them, they show ns to
what the doctrine is tending.

How docs the case stand here ? They dared me to investigation. I have made it
What have they done here ? They really talk as if I offered to come here and explain
the manifestations.

*

Mb. Milleb. — I have not said so: but you have accepted, this question.

Mr. Grimrs. — Ko ; you have not said so. But soppose any one were going to explain
them, would I not say, — sir, before I explain it, you mnst show it to me. Don't you all
remember the story told of Franklin, when they asked him the reason why lihe immersion
of a fish into a vessel of water already filled to the brim would not cause the water to run
over. He said : " I never tried it ; but my opinion is, it will run over." They tell me
those things, and ask me to explain it I say, whenever I have tried it, t^ did run oner»
I have been myself presented : — I did not offer myself as a witness, here. But the
gentleman says they will not let me into their circles. I have been in many places
where I was unknown, where they have had their circles, and I have been present at
them. The gentleman himself acknowledges there is some humbug. He calls out
YonYleck to testify that a great number of their manifestations are humbug. Bly, their
own man, makes it his special duty to do this. And yet, when we undertodc to add one
angle witness more, the man's character was attacked with tremendous ferocity ; and
when he attempted to introduce a letter with s(Hne explanation, they were in a great
wrath. How did this quarrel begin ? Dr. Mattson sent in a letter merely fitting a
ample fact, his own experience. Immediately, his character was attacked : — " Who is
he ? " " AVhat is he ? " " He lies ! "— and attempted to contradict him. You will all
bear me witness that I did all I could, to prevent a word being said, unkindly, <^ Mr.
Farrar. Indeed, I did not think he deserved it. I have not said a woi4 against any
one. If I take my choice, to believe that the s^nrit tips the table or that somebody lies,
— he lies, of course. A man asks me to give up my religion, my Bible, to desert my
church, and give up the hopes of immortality, founded upon Christ the Redeemer, — he
ridicules Christ, the blood of Christ, the death of Christ, — calb them all a humbug, — and
the moment I turn upon him, he meets me with ** Oh, you are ridiculing us t '' Have
they spared Christians ? Have they spared our Church ? Have they spared anybody
but their own mediums, vast numbers of whom, according to the SpiritualistB' own story, .
deserve to be kicked out of all decent society ?

MR. MTTiTiBW.

My brother commenced by stating what I had expressed in my lecture on Sunday
afternoon, and immediately proceeded to state, in connection with that, that we repa*

158 DiscnasioH ov b?iritua];.ibx BETw:i^sN >

diated the nwuriagp coveo^t Did yoa mean to impute that to mj discourse oa Stuoe
da^ aflemoon ?

mbt. Gbimbs. — *I did not say, repudiaUd it I said the Spiritualists did hold that it
irat not oblatory.

Mr. . Miller. -p- Where, then, is the Spiritualist journal, the neivspaper, that con-
tains such a doctrine ?

Mr. Grimes. —•- 1 said, in ih^^ first place, that the Spiritualists have no written creeds
But who does not :kaow that they trample the marriage oUigation under foot ?

Mi^ Millar* — I do not Ladies and gentlemen, I regret to say, here, that I conader
that my brother, in his closing remarks, has very grossly misrepresented Spiritualism,
and wantonly misstated the views I set forth in my lecture last sabbath afternoon. I
spoke of the three dispensations, — the Mosaic, the Christian, and the Harmonial dispensap
tiops, I refer, by the Iatter,.to the third dispensation, or age of science, philosophy and rea*
son. I endeavored to slibw, from the science of phrenology, that the old Mosaic Dispensa-
tion, was characterized by force, coercion, and power ; that it was born of the animal pro-
pensities ; that it was the law of im eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I distinctly
stated that I thought it the best law God could give to man at that time ; but that in the
seconddispe&sation, man hadioieasurably outgrown his animalism ; that the moral sentk-
monts began to be awakened, and that these gave birth to the Dispensation of Love, a»
exemplified in.the charact^ and teachings of Jesus Christ ; that in the third dispensation,
the race is approacbing> its manhood, and the intellectual faculties are beginning to ba
unaided, and that man is now making, hb researches in the field of positive philosophy,
and science ; and that unless we can demonstrate religion and immortality, as we d^nm^
strate other science, weshair be shipwrecked upon the shoals of infidelity and scept^
cism. I gave examples^ illustrating this fact, as exhibited among scientific men, and»
amotig them^I spdbe of Thomaa Fbine, who did such service to the cause of Ameri-
can fVcodcsn at > the time of the Bevoluticm ; I spoke of him as the friend of Washing-
ton, and Franklin, and Jc0eraon« Ho possessed a gigantic intellect ; and no one
denies it. I stated that the time, would come when the world would do justice to Paine ;
and so I believe. But why should this*be dragged into this question ? The gentleman
seems to have abandoned the queiM^ion entirely, to introduce what he claims to be the
creed of Spiritualists.

One other thing, and I leave it He says, we do not consider the marriage covenant
obligatory. I most solemnly protest that this is not true, in any sense, and challenge
him to put his hand upon a single Spiritualbt journal, or book, which avows such a sen-^
timent. I do not claim that SpirituaJistB have not done wrong; it would be strange if
all had done right Neither do I claim that they are better than others* But it is. the
principles of Spiritualism, the Spiritual philosophy, and the fact of spirit^intercoursei
that I stand here to defend. That Spiritualists disregard virtue, or marriage ob)iga*
tidns,]anO more true than of the Christian Church. No sect or class of people are
perfect In first Corinthians, Paul- says of the eariy Christian Church, that they had
licentiousness not. known even amoi;^ the heathen. Does that militate against the -
Christian religion ? Not in the least It is a well-known and lamentable fact, that »
you can hardly take up a daily paper, no matter where published, that does not con-
tain one or more accounts of the shortcomings of clerical gentlemen and members
of the Ghristiaa. churches. But does that militate against the piire and holgr
religion whieh. Christ tai)gl)itV No; it does not A few miqgiuded .aoul4..hyai-.

LEO JCqpitt^ AHX> PROF, GIim;9. 15^.

tried; to get up a free-love iostitudon in Berlin Heights, Ohio; and out of two .
milHoA Spiritualists in the United States, they have never been able to obtain
thirty to join their ranks. And yet, there are five hundred clergymen in ou|r
state-prisons, .to<lay, who have been imprisoned, muiy of them, for the darkest, gross*
est» meanest crimes that ma^ is capable of compiitting. But were there thirty hundred '
there^ it woqld not militate, ii^ the leasl^ agfiinat Christianity. Why, then, are these
thijQgs brought up, when the gentleipan's bu^ess is to explain facts V He says we ridb*
cu)e the bipod df Jesus -Christ This does npt belong to the question, one way or the
otder ; yet I am free to confer that I do not believe there is any such mysterious effi-
cacy in the blood of Christ, as the Christian Church claums ; though far.be it from me
to ridicule any person's honest convictions of truth. If I do not believe it, in common
honesty do not ask me to repeivoj thi^t which I cannot perceive to be true, fi)r I should
be fiilse tomyself if I did. He says, *' wc ridicule prayer." I confess, I do not like
long, formal prayers, such as Jesus Christ rebuked, eighteen hundred years ago. But
I do believe in {Hrayiag unoeasiiigly ; ibr prayer is the desire of the heart But, friends,,
if we can have but one thing, prayer or work, let us have the work t— the good
deeds. Here are men and women starving, in your city. I mentioned a case, last
night, and it was thought I was severe: now I will give you the reference. F. 6..
Pope, Na 3 Pembroke Street, was the gentleman to whom the last and successful «p-
plication was made in behalf of the poor woman for whose starving child a wealthy
member of the Church had offered a handful of ginger-snaps.

I say that these oi^anizations have ceased jto accomplish any great good. There was
a time when they wcre.doing a mighty work ; to-day, it seems they are dead; and their
only efforts are to maintain the lifeless organization. They do not look around them
and say, Where are the hungry, iho needy, the, stai'ving, that we may relieve them.?
I do not say any thing against prayer; but I do believe that one leaf of bread, divided
among the hungry and starving, will go further, in. the sight of Heaven, and do more
good, than all the prayers from all the thirty-six thousand pulpits in the United States.
And I further say, that when the church-members are taxed one hundred million dol-
lars, annually, to pay men for praying for the poor and needy, there is very little money
left to buy bread for the hungry, starving subjects of their petitions. Action, not .
prayer alone, is what humanity most needs. Fred Douglas said he prayed for his
freedom for years, prayed with his head and his heart; but it never amounted to any
thing till he prayed with his heels. We want men to put their shoulders to the wheel|
to roll on the great car of human progress.

Friends, I did state, iu my discourse, that if we are to have no proof of immortality
beyond that which the Church has thus far afforded, scepticism and infidelity must sweep
away all religion. Let us see, for a moment, what Spiritualism has done. Long, long
ago, Job asked the question, " If a man die, shall he live again ? ** And from that day
to this, it has been asked. To millions it has been answered. Paul says that the last
enemy to overcome is Death. Death, frightful, hideous as the King of Terrors, has lost
its victory over the soul ; for millions feel and know that it is but a transitional sleep,
from which the unfettered spirit rises to a better and higher life. It demonstrates in^-
mortality, triumphantly. You may say, and the Church may say, we have abundant
evidence of immortality. I say the world has been without tangible, reliable evidence.
You have, hoped for immortality, you have desired it ; />ut you did not believe it, with a
faith based upon good evidence ; for your actions tell another story. If you believe
your friends exist, why do you put on the dark habiliments of woe, and say they .are.
dead? Why the mournful tread of tlie funeral procession, why the dark pall, why the.

160 DISCtJSSlOK 6F SPIRITUALISH BETWEEN

gkom that overspreads the family circle, when the dear one is passed awaj ? lb the
minds of nine-tenths of the Christian world, death is equivalent to annihilation. Why
do they speak of their friends as being in the graveyard ? Had you the evidence that
Spiritualism affords, you would know that they are not there. I will give you an illn»-
tration to show the comparative difference between faith and knowledge. You may see
it every day. A few years ago, I had occasion to leave my home. I packed up my things,
and took my mother's hand for a parting adieu ; and* when I bade her good-by, tears
stood in her eyes. When I had gone, my mother sat down, and calculated the probable^
chances of a reunion. Although I was to be gone a long time, she would not put upon
herself the dark habiliments of woe ; but she said, '* Though there is danger of his being
shipwrecked or lost, or I may be taken away from this life, yet in all probabUily I shall
see the light of his countenance again." And I returned, and that mother realized all
her highest hopes.' But another member of her family is called upon to take a journey.
The call is imperative, and she must go. Death came and knocked at the door, and
laid his cold, icy hands upon the mother's youngest bom, the idol of her lieart, and my
young sister is stricken down in the embrace of death. Oh, how changed the scene,
now ! That mother, who had as much evidence of immortality as faith, hope, and the
Church could giv^ her, who had sat under the droppings of the sanctuary for years,
cries in the anguish and loneliness of her heart, " My child is dead ! my child is dead t **
Now did she not know, if we have the evidence of future life which the Church cliums,
that she would certainly meet her child, soon ? When I went away, she had only the
probalnlities of a reunion to depend upon, but now the absolute certainty, if she ha^
knowledge of a ftitture life. She was far advanced in years, and must know that sodn
she would be united to her child. But instead (^ that, she refused to be contorted,
and in the anguish of her soul she cried, — '^ She is dead ! she is dead ! " And she fol-
lowed the remains of that loved one to the silent grave ; and as each successive clod fell
upon the coffin-lid, it but echoed back to the mother's heart the terrible words —
'* Dead I dead I " Her grief was short, for soon the Angel of Death came and unlocked
the prison-house of clay, and let her spirit leap forth to join her angel child. This is
but a picture of every-day scenes, the world over. The sorrow of the mourner's heart,
the dark habiliments of woe, all show that we have been without any tangible, reliable
evidence of immortal life ; but Spiritualism, thanks to the Infinite, comes in to demon-
strate a hereafter, to destroy death, to cheer humanity, and to fill the void in the mourn-
er's heart. And it has done more to fill the world with gladness and joy, in the last
ten years, than all the discoveries of science for the last half century.

It has had, too, a tendency to awaken the mind from a long night of lethargy. H^
as one great writer says, " the agitation of thought is the beginning of wisdom," then,
sorely, are wo about to be ushered into a new dispensation. For never, in the history
of the human race, has the mind been so thoroughly agitated as in the last twelve years.
There has been more freedom of thought, niore real, independent, unrestricted thought,
exercised in this time, than in the two hundred years previous.

I have but little to say in regard to these manifestations. The philosophy of Spirit-
ualism, and its sublime truths, do not rest, altogether, upon these manifestations. All
they are calculated for, is to arrest attention, investigation, and inquiry. And I say»
further, you can have the same positive proof, the same reliable evidence, of the truths of
Spiritualism, that you can of any science whatever ; but you/ have to conform to the
laws and principles that govern them. If they cannot be reproduced here, go where
the circumstances render it possible and easy. I would add, that every man who has
given it a careful investigation, has gone away satisfied of its truth. Yon cannot Dama

nifiki lii iirriH Andertiike' to neMit dtMa tbe ttidtipliostbn<^ble as from thefte flwtti.'
Investigate, and you will find that your proof of immortality does not depend upon anjr
Wli^iMyjiistery, oMtesaj-so ^ tmy man. I know my angel sister stands by my ddie
now, and if others have not sueh eridenee, ibeir negative testimony InU never dlq[>rovt
this. Ahnost daily for the last two years, I ha^aludevidBBM whitk^readen it ai oinr.
tain as life. This evidence may not be shown you here, h%A con&rm to tibe laws ^d
principles which regulate spirit-manifestations, and you shall have the proof, in your
own private circles. And when the mighty trnthr busts upon your mind, that you are
sorronnded by dear friendsy you will find, in the hour of temptation, that a gentle
vMHiiyaBdMfgeljIslei^wfilflltengthen.yotttheaKt; andlf 7^ are not totally depraved,
riMWiiiiltiitt cbotttk 4i lo^^fffl dmw you nearer to God. My brother seemed to colh
"fey the idea, last evening, that because some medhun have done wrong, thereibre UnM
^ttieneiw can ha/v^^nepewevftr virtue. That would destroy ilie doctrine that a moHher
hns«ayfaifiii0no6 ovef her <Mi How nmny ehildrettidth moral parents do eril deedlk
Bat^bia that desdnafthe'^MfC that mothers have an injBuenee? He asks, also, hew dkalf
we protect ourselves from bad qnrits. Jesus Christ, and the iqiosties, taught that we'
are surrounded by good and bad spirits. John tells us to try tiie simits; andyetpy
brother says that we have no means of determining whether spirits are good or bad/
TiQK llHPiiibjr their WQidt ad woiIh^

:I ani«n7» iadeedf tha4«qr tin* has expired; but I sna stffl mofe« Mrry, if we aii^
WMmf^Aaliny firiettdhaaiift explained » sii^ fiiet-^aad so it will go befoe ther

Ibi^leave to g^veafikcti as the gentleman i^ves ihom sofireely. I liead finom Air
ifiQiyfa of fA SpirituaiKitt who was a Spiritualist fisrma^^

H^ MOABm.^ Bid 4ie write it hiBMlf?

Mtt. GntMss. — Hie gentleman can ask what he pleases,.when I sit down.

"Thftta^toriirtB <r Aifffaslw fiatwi, w not only, — •ibo^y, iai>*hriii»i|i'^MlPg >Mto<h«UtodHhi'
eiB|l|^iiXMMftl>iTinereT«Utioa, udtheeziiteiio* of* God, bat tli«j «>• grota ■vofoalifrtf anA iitl«ijl»»
■Biill' HniMIt eoudoet In aO Uw idBttons of Uft."

JSr.nuiii«idMltliaft,<*Ihliwainot onfylnM tt ia» tnamlOa^to BphftaudMH tt ft bod3r,lmtttMtrl|r
WM^rnftctferwr 999 oat ^1,000 of tMrnnmbor. XboMSDdoofpofoonBbaddiedl&iJMpieftdttrliifthoflftNft
yttit that he had been a Sphrltnall»t, who had noiorionaly Uved moat inunond Uvea, and yet the i^iiili af -
cfmy one or theeepenonsaArttied that th^ifere all perftetly happy. The8pixltaalifta*liteiatan^A««iifi^
lb. Harria al8oatated,4mi, ipilh opa-or kro eaweftiona tn a thoiand eaaoi, PsBtheietie, fceMe, dflreUfaig, 1119=,
alipprt idlnltp. Zhal^fitaaUtta«wa utterly adflih^aainUaB annai and groM^ hnmegal. ZhiywiM4it-
ttaWofalVhoinan vympathiaa, and neifer weia known to peiftD^

. :'Xe% a Spiritualist si^ diis, though tibe :gen<ieaian says not one ever recanted*

• m i iij <My Idiwad Ifaat^ in m lUt nua at a to, th^ wwdd Uto tte luna Beantloaa Una aa they had dona «a
aarth. The A m wl na n Splritaaliete wwii, Im i e amj ,<^body af pagMM, wqMhtpptog,Uke theaiialant yagana, ah*
acene, and, in erery reBpect, grossly lieentions, deitiei. And aa legacda the spirits with whom tl^y lield mm*
mnnleatlon, tbipy n whl ad ttioaane a f H M and desMna wbo took poaissiion «i man and wdman in the d*3f* of
Christ, and who lire so frequently leteied to in God'awwd— thatwwd whieh is Hw onJIyaiua
of owrfldth, and the only safc rale oi our eondoct."

Here is a man that never recantedl

**Them were a law ChxistUn man who had besa deladadlBio the ad^iytioii af tha. ^yitoa, b«t «ily Ig a
nwHlMtiS degree, and so long as Uteir SpiritnaUsm was kept in sattJection by their Oliristianity, the
ttapii ha^mdmada did not apply to tteem. SatthesaexeepftlDaMwiassofinraaiobeliardly warthyaf
Halwgged to impress on the minds of hSs andienoe, that all that he had said of the system «fi^piritaali«a-«»
, ha BhiTantariand aa.aiii^/inMii vyrten— waa tfaa lasstt of hia awn puiawiil knowtodgaand aypsrttnii»>

11

I

I6ji DlSCU^aip]^ OF J^>]^TU4JJ9¥ B^TinfEEN

My £riend told me that they would iiot let me in and tliat therefisre I could not

btiyseiTe. Here is the testimony of a SpiritosJist, a. nuuii^ith fifteen yean of:obMtK

TadoxL .. . . !••

;.l^ere is only one thing I have to s^y, in conclnaiony^tihat por iOaendi h/^l^i.iiai

^▼en almndant evidence that he js better than his system. - ■ '

MB.MiLi.fiB. — I am not half as good.

Mb. Gbujocs. — Hiei^ Heaven save you I

1-

My friends, the more I think of these principles, the more I feel my own* unwortia*
ness to represent them. There is not an hour in my life, that I do not ^:ay to be better
in. heart, that I may represent them m6re truly.

Now, one word in regard to T. L. Harris. He does not deny the truth of spirit-inter-,
course, neither is that article, which the gentleman read, his letter or his qieech, bat a'
zeport published in the London Advertiser; and the reporter says he went to the meet-
ing to get something against Spiritualism.

Mb. Gbimes. — " Human testimony ! "

Mr. Milleb. — It is not the testimony of the speaker, but it is a gross mis r epr es ent
tatipn,. doubtless. Is it not strange that Harris should be among these SpiritualistB for
fifteen years and just discover that they are so bad? Is it possible he should have as-
sociated with them so long, and just foiuid it out ? Fifteen long years it took him, to be
among them, to discover ninety-nine one-hundredths of them to be gross. In J;he earliest
history of Spiritualism, T. L. Harris set himself up as an inspired vehicle of infallible
KiVielatioiis. He published a paper, and claimed to be the medium by whom Jesus
Christ and Paul were making revelations, to Ifie world, of infallible truth. He did not
succeed in this. He tried hard to build up a church in New York, and failed. . Hie
Spiritualists were afraid t^iat if they built up a church, they would become as corrupt as
other churches ; for history teaches that when the Church becomes prosperous and pow-
erfiil, its tendency is to dcnnineer and tyrannize over the mind. He failed to get up a
chnrch in New Tork ; and because the Spiritualists would not bow down to him and al-
low what he claimed to be the spirits of Jesus Christ and Paul to tell them, through him,
what they must do and what they must not, he goes over to London and denounces
Spiritualism. The report is, undoubtedly a garbled one, as letters which have been re-
iceived from England, state that Mr. Harrb was greatly misrepresented.

A few words, ladies and gentlemen, to you, in these concluding remarks. Our dis-
icusdon has been continued through eight evenings. Personally, I have no ill feeling
itowards my brother. He occupies the plane that he does, and perhaps cannot see dif^
^erently. He has said some hard things, some very hard thii^s, but it has injured hiDOh*
;8elf more than you. He has denounced mediums personally.

Mb. Gbimes. — I hope you are not going to make a personal troubley now,

Mr. Miller. — No, sir.

Mb. Gbimes. — For, if you are, I am ready for it

Mb. Miller. — I desire to have my five minuteai

. Mb. Gbimes. — You have it ; but it is in bad taste to take this opportunity to speak
•ef me personally.

LEO HILLEB AND FROF. GRIMES. 163

Mb. Milder. -^ I have no quarrel with my brother. If he has done wrong, if it may.
seem to you he has been malicious, if he has —

Mr. Grimes. -7- Oh, apologize for your own indecorum. The word maliciout is bad^
as applied to me. You may talk about any thing else but my personal malictousness-—
don't do that «

Mr. Miller. — I would say, friends, if we are traduced by the opposition, and mis-
represented, let us remember that those who are for us are greater than those who are
against us. And to those who misunderstand and misrepresent us, let us say, in the
spirit and language of the Martyr or Calyary, ^ Father, forgiye them, for they know not
what they da"

Mr. Grimes. — That wHl do Tery welL

The discussion was here closed.

It was then announced that Dr. Gardner desired to make a statement of the facta
attending the investigation of Spiritualism, in 1857, by the committee generally known
as the ** Harvard Investigating Committee." He proceeded as follows : —

DB. GABDNER'S STATEMENT OF THE INVESTIGATION OF SPIRIT.
UALISM BY THE BOSTON COURIER'S COMMITTEE.

• ■

I purpose to detmn the audience but a very few moments ; and I should not do that

upon my own account, alone. But the matter of the Harvard investigation has been
very often called up, in discussions and newspapers, and in the published conversations
of the day, for nearly three years ; and I have remained silent, with the exception of
fiurly announcing, afler the conclusion of the so-called investigation, something of the
facts in the case. I have waited, in vain, for that report which was promised by the gen-
tlemen compofflng that committee, gentlemen who occupy a position in society, members
of the Faculty of Harvard University, an institution of learning, second, I suppose, to
no other in this country, gentlemen from whom the community had the right to expeet
fulfilment of their promise.

Of the circumstances attending that Harvard investigation p{ Spiritualism, you are
all, doubtless, aware. It originated in a proposition from myself, to Professor Felton, to
discuss the subject with a medium whom he had denounced as talking nonsense to
gaping crowds, by the hour. He rejected that — or the Courier did, and it was under-
stood that Professor Felton was the author of the article, and, in return, offered five
hundred dollars for the production of certain specified phenomena, before a committee
whom he should name, where all manner of imposition or jugglery should be out of the
question,, and suggested the names of Professors Agassiz, Pierce, Horsford, and Dr.
Gould, as that committee. I accepted the proposition, on condition that the trial should
be' had under the arrangements that were universally recognized, by Spiritualists, as
necessary and essential for the production of that class of manifestations. Correspondence
took place. A meeting was had in Cambridge, at the house of Professor Ag<My'z>— jt
think, the first of June, — I have not my notes by me. Professors Pierce and Agassiz:
both said they did not like the position in which they were placed^ as stakeholders. I
agreed with thein, but reminded them that they had been placed in that position by their

164, Discussion of aPwruAXfiw sstwie^

friend of the BoHon CourUtr, -^ Mr. Geoz^ge Li^xtk apfeMiiig fof U>e. <h»mr oa l^t poqar-
fton. After that conversation, and an expreofJQpi. of a di^wr^.on tbe part% of : tb# p9|rqoi^
present, wltom I have named, to investigate the subject, and oth^r matters connectod
ihemwith, 1 stated, to the gentlemen, "trhai I had often said to my IKendsi and
esfijBcially to AUen Potnam, Esq., of Roxbtny, who was with me, that the Itve
hundred dallars was a thing I wanted to have out of the way, but that I would
be gbid if thne sdenljfio geqtl^nen woidd investigate the sutfeet candidly mid
eameiidy* I stated that with the five hundred dolli^ I wiMiIdhiurftnothiag tD4o,->-^ th^
I neyer h^ any thing to do with $^tiudi«ft jforjAi wager or tjay tldng b£ that hindU
They ei^pvessed ^msolvoi^ h^hly griilified^ Mf* l«unlt and Mr. Xgnmfj and Mi\.
Fierce, I believe, especially, so expressed themselves ; and Professor ^g^vAn mid -h^
would even waive other important engagement^ and give this matter special .fttt^nt^p*
Articles of agreement were drawn up, as to the manner in which the investigation
should be conducted. They agned their names to it KoW) attiof^-other l^ngi, it was
agreed that I should have the entire arrangement of the circles, or have the manage^
ment of them, or should be aUowed to pi^iiHSie maiii&ftetioBS under the conditions that
I should prescribe, to which, if not satisfactory to the gentlemen composing the commit-
tee, they should have the opportunity to suggest such alterations as they thou^h|; propef »
andl would stiS! try to produce the manifestations. Another conjdSiSon. W$s, ^t I
should hav^the right to require that all should sit in the oircle^ expept the comnuttee, r—
Fh>fessor Agassiz saying he would not do that Ko other member of the committee
making any objection to sit in the circles, I inferred that they were willing^ to do sa
It was fhrther agreed ihat certain specific; persons^ only, skeitld he presenf, Mid ^nt tile
C(mduct of all should be snch as is d|ie fit)ln one gentleman to another in- the society of
gentlemen ; that nothing like scoffing should take p^ce, mnce that would utterly d^»tro|r
the manifM&tions. These conditions were signed by tbd gentlemen, and, finally^, afi^r
much labor on my p^ the committee met, in the Albion iftooms, on tlie 2^ik gf '
Ji!ine, 1857.

Then, fiMrthe fint time, though t had seen the gentlemen several times,. th^y. siijid jbp
me, *^ We come here, not as a committee of investigation^^ but to judg^ tmd dcKade the
case upon the questioii of the award of the five hundred dollars o^ene^d by the Boston
Courier , for the production of certain specified phenomena-** I saidf ^ Gentlemeini^I
thought that the five hundred dollars was disposed o^ long ago ; and the fact that I
have, at great expense, brought ^rward mediums to produce other kinds of inayu&st^
tions, is proof gfthitt" They said, Yes; but the Boston Courier had not withdraw^
its offer. I said Mr. €reotge Limt was present at the house of Professor Agassiz^ on the
day of the first meetting, as the representative of the Boston Couriir, and jCQrdially ap-
proved my proportion to waive the wholc^ nu^tt^r of the five hundred doUfMns offi^ied.
However, i^ter they had examined the arrangements of the roon^ tables, eto.f we seated
ourselves aiound the table, Mrs. Brown and Miss Kate Fox being the mediums. Baps
were made, but the communications did not.apiount to very mi^ch, — tha4>i9i they hijd
not much oonnecti^li* Various experiments were had, to show whence they came.
They appeared to be on the table. The mediums were then asked to put their. U^e
finger on the box. The i^ps were produced upon the box, ^Ustinctiy. Si;bseqi|eatlTy j
the sofii was moved away from the partition against which it stood, diridinK ^^ ^^^
looms. It had no contact with the purtition ; and Professor Horsford and others paspoA
vpCm the other side, and said the raps were distinctly heard upon the partition^ iiotiitfiig^
bat the Iltde.finger of the iiiediambmi^ in contact . After these manHfststJt>iMi on Hm
fint diiyi— ahoat the time we were aboot tosq^arate,sm)w^hingwassittdmrsBwdto«e?

L£o miLint Axn> prop, grimes. 16S

Tietrifig the txdnutes, so that they should agree as to what had taken place, and soma
Iftlle dispute took place between some of die gentlemen ; when Professor Agassis toI*
imteered to say, (Gentlemen, we understand, perfectly, how the raps were made, and
befere these seoions conclude, w6 wQl explain it to you so that the truth will dawn upon
yomr mind as the light of the noonday sun. Professor Pierce assented to this. Subse-
quently to that, in consequence of the ungentlemanly deportment or language of some
of &ese persons on the committee, and in consequence of their Yiolation of their written,
^lecified c6titract, which t hav^, and which can be produced when the time comes,
therd were not other mantfestations produced which were satisfiM^ry.

I know I place myself m a very peculiar pontion, in standing up, a humble individual
as I am, and saying what I do say in regard to such men as Professor Agas^, Professors
Ptevee, Hor^fitod, and Gould. Let me say, however, in justice to Pnxfessor Horsford,
that throc(gh the whole of these sessions of the committee, his conduct was diat of a per>
feet gentleman, and the impression which he gave that of a man earnestly desirous to
investigate, candidly, the matters referred to him. I am sorry I cannot say the same of
two others of the professors of Harvard College. Dr. Grould was not a professor. Toa
will, of course, understand to whom I refer — Profi^ssors Agassiz and Pierce: — their
conduct itas not geioitlemanly. In consequence of these facts, the manifestations did not
take place.

On the second day of July, I had invited th» editors of most of the papers in Boston,
to be present to witness the production of phenomena by the same mediums, in the same
ro(ym, under the same circumstances as in the presence of the committee. These me-
diums had been invited, and l^r. Redman was present. The table was produced, which,
according to the certificate of Dr. Bell, was made to weigh double and three times its
natuinl weight, while his fingers were on the under side. The visitors, comprising quite
a number of die editors of Boston, or their representatives, expressed themselves satis-
fied. In the evening, Miss Fox and Mrs. Brown wero thero. For an account of what
transpired, I refer to you the Boston Post^ of the Sd of July, 1857, a representative of
that Journal having been present*

* Th» artiele raftntid to, txtweti ftwn wfaieh wwi bun w>d 1^ Dr. Ctord—r, wuMfrilowt:-*

**Thi SpxitT QvisnoM AoAor — Fumu IvmnoATiOR.— Notwittutandiag th* eondMnnikwy ngni of
ffafe 'Spbitiul Invostlgating Committee,' ftppolnted 1^ the pabliihen of the CowUr^ to inveitigate the mani-
Ibttitlem of SpWtwil mediomi brougfat Ibrwmrd hj Dr. Qerdmr,— the iutetance of wfaieh report, befog thai
ett of the eoamlttee'e f6«r teeCs bed ftIM of belag setlrfbetOKlly met,— Dr. e. Imited, jeeterdaj ftAeraoon aaft
erening, to room No. 12 Albion Home, repneentatiTee from the dUbvent newepapen la Boetoo, for the piH>
poM of nhibitlng to them, lUe experiments in spbitaal manlAitatlone, and placing throng tlito InatrameB-
tel%, their piictieal reenlte, before ttie pobUe. The pnm waa laigply represented, and the strleteet attentkM
was given to the proceedings . Without Tolnnteering aaj opinion on the snl^oct of SpiritnaUsm, we will gif«
a brief statement of what traaqiired, as It appeared to oar understanding. In tiie afternoon, at 8 o^eleok, tha
mediums, Mrs. Brown and Miss Kate iToz (sisters), were present. At the suggsotkm of Dr. Gacdner, the vlslt-
ois examined the tables and fixtures in the room. The company, with tfie medium, thMi sat round a laige
table, and In a Short time a very brisk mpping, In a Tarlety of tones, assailed the ear. A series of questioning
of eertain sj^rlts was now oommraoed through the instrumentality of the *■ rap,* and under the direction of
the lady metUums.' X^^ answers were, in almost every instaoee, straii^t and saUsflkctoiy, and from the sys*
tem adopted <^ transferring the questioning from one to another, a suqilclon of eoUusloir between the ma>
diiunii wpuld be difleult to anive at by evMi the most aeeptloal. Thia setting oocu^ed about oao hour
•ad a quarter.

'^ tn the tfrening the manifestations were <tf a different dmraeter. Two boys were placed in a box wltk seals
at each end, and the lights put out. It was then desired that * John ' (the spirit) should tie them t(«sther,
ropes hariim been plaeed In the box ftr the purpose. But ' John' wonldn^t do it, and the exper i men t felled.
The b^s wer« then tied together in the most secure manner, with many knots exceedingly Intricate, and th«
UilhtsagiAnputout. Therequest this time was that the spfait should untie them, and while the lavestigaSns
held those baring charge of the exhibition, the boys were separated amid a great pulling and rubUivkV«^

166, DISCUSSION OF SPIRITUALIS:^! BETWEEN

The manifestations produced before thb committee of Boston editors, weFe,Xbelievey
satisfactory in every iQstance ; and they expressed an opinion tliat there conld be no
collusibn. They had an opportunity of examining the rooms, tables, and mediums, to
the fullest Extent ; and still these manifestations T^ere produced ; proving tkat had the
committee acted fairly and honorably, the ,samt manifestations would have been pro-
duced in their presence ; for they were produced in the same room, by the same medi-
ums, on the same material.

In the conclusion of their award, that committee dragged iif extraneous matter, and
ventured to assert, from observations they had themselves, personally, made, that any
cpnnection. with Spiritualistic circles, so called, corrupts the morals and degrades the
intellect ; and that they therefore deemed it their solemn duty to warn the community
against this contaminating . influence, as surely tending to lessen the truUi of man -.
and the purity of woman.

They wrote me a letter, enclosing their award, and, indeed, expressing their entire
satisfaction at the manner in which I had conducted the meetings, complimenting me
very highly. They expressed their regret that I had been so many times disappointed,
etc. But in closing this award, they made this addendum which I have. read. I wrote
back, asking them, briefly, if it was any thing that they had observed during those Bit-
tings, whicb had brought them to this conclusion which they had thus published to the
world. The gentlemen did not condescend to answer. . .

' They did not explain how the raps were made, though they have oflen, since, been
urged to dp so, and though they promised to explain them so that it should be clear aa
the noonday sun. . ■

They promised to report to the world : the Report did not come. And why did it
not ? I will give you my opinion as to the reason of its non-appearance. I think I am
warranted in the belief, hy the manner in which they managed the whole afiair. They
expected, by their great, names and influence, to write down the whole testimony of the
millions who have witnessed the phenomena of Spiritualism. A few days afterwards,
suspecting this trick of theirs — for, after seeing what I had, I suspected they might be
capable of almost any thing, — I invited the editorial fraternity to be present, so that if
those gentlemen stated any thing not true, the editors of the Boston press would have
the matter before them ; and if they denied that the manifestations could be produced,
the editors of Boston should have it in their power to say they had witnessed them ui^der
the same circumstances and by the same mediums. The representative of the Past
made a report of what occurred at one of the seancesy and thus the learned profbssors
became aware of the precaution I had taken to guard the cause I represented, from in-
jury by any unfair or garbled report they might make. The day after the publication

(Iflco nttnng of Topes), and much to the astonishment of all present, who, with the greatest caie, were unable
to detect any trickery. This transpired within fifteen mlnntes.

** The next feat was to tie the boys np, which fkiled before, and it was accomplished in six minutea. Th^
were examined, and the lights once more extinguished. In accordance with a request, the spirit (and when,
wo say * John * did this or that, it is only for convenience based on general supposition) closed the doors of the
box and bolted them. A tamborine had been placed upon the floor of the box, and upon its top, outside, of
eonne, wae a riolin. The latter article then fell through, and the two instruments came in contact. In •
eeicond they wbre playing * Pop Qota the Weasel.* The doors were then unbolted and flew open, and almost
instantly the room was lighted. The company rushed towards the scene of action, and, wonderAU'to zelate,
found- the boys as intricately tied as at first.

^*T^ lights were again put out, and the boys untied in two minutes, the shutting and bolting operation
being again porfbrmed. This was the last experiment of the evening, an^ the company departed perfectly be-
wildered at what they had seen. We submit the whole matter Ibr what it is worth. Another meeting wUl b«
held tfait erening.*'

^ LEO XILLEB AND PBOF. 6BIMS8. 167

of the article referred to, which appeared in the Boston Post, was the day on which it
was expected their Report would be made. But it neyer came. Professor Horsford
said, sometime aflerwiurd, on the floor ci the old Melodeon Hall, that they were sdll
pursuing their investigations, which were nearly concluded, and that the Beport would
Tery soon be forthcoming.

The Boston Courier published a report, well calculated, whether intentionally so or
not, to deceive the whole community. It was quite generally supposed to be the Beport
of the Committee of Investigation. That report was written by George Lunt, a man who
reclined on the sofa in the room, during the atting, and, whenever any thing occurred,
acoffingly and insultingly manifested his feelings in such a mann^ as so to disturb the
mediums as to be, in my opinion, a principal cause of the want of success in the produc-
tion of manifestations. That man, Lunt, gave his account in the Courier, and made
statements that were not true ; and I challenge him to prove them. He has friendS|
here ; I believe the reporter of the Courier is here, and I want him to put it down. I
feel that the cause of truth has been outrageously abused by these gentiemen, who call
themselves respectable men, who occupy the position of teachers, in Harvard College,
an institution that has been more largely supported by the taxation of Massachusetts
than any other in the state. Those men, I say, are the teachers of our youth. They
still stand pledged to make the report which they promised three years aga And, fhim
all the circumstances in the case, I say they have done violence to the cause of truth
and justice. I stand here and boldly and fearleSbly make this statement, because I am satis-
fied that the truth will sustain itself And I challenge them to meet my statement. The
reason the raps were not produced was because the conditions which the ccxnmittee
had agreed upon were violated. The reason the committee did not pubUsh the Beport^
was because they dared not do it, because the editorial corps of Boston would come out
and give them the lie if they said that the manifestations could not be produced imder
circumstances where there was no possibility of trickery or collusion.

I have taken thb occasion to speak of this matter, because I am not accustomed to
meet any audience except such as are principally composed of Spiritualists. I
wish to make an addendum to this discusssion, to let the world know the truth in this
case, and the fact that those men have falsified their promise to the community, in failing
to produce their report

Mb. Grimes. — I want to say a single word in regard to that matter. It is stated
that the reason why these gentiemen did not public the report was because they dared
not, and did not mean ta I can be a witness in regard to one fact relevant to that ; and
that is, that after this matter was all over, I knew, firom conversation with one or two of
these professors, that they were still engaged in investigation. One of them told me
they intended to make out their Beport. This was a private matter. They called upon
me for any facts I might have in my possession, which would aid them in^ their investi-
gation.

Dr. Gardner. — I have not any doubt, myself, that they did intend to report
There is another reason, perhaps, for their faQure, — that is, they have, in their investi-
gations, seen so much of it that they are ashamed to report.

Mb. Grimes. — That is very true !

CONTENTS

SacKurD ^
Tbxbd ^

FOUBTH *

QUESTION FIRST.

Mondaj, Maxdi 5tli|
w Tuesday, << 6^1,

WediiMdaj,^ 7tli,
•^ Tlmnday, ^ 81]^

23

40
5S

Fdth SvumiQi

tt
tt

EWHTH

QUESTION SECOND.

% March 9tli>

• Satuxdaj, <• 10U^
Monday, «« 18th,

• Tuesday, ** 181h,

78

100
180
141

Dr Gardner^f ilateioflnt of tiie iaTMtiigatkm of SpiiitaaEflBi bj the BotUm Caih
rkv^a ConnittMy 188

. < i .'! X 7. K) >

:*i

-' i

II

t!.
» I.

:•' ' \- ■.: .

. » '

' J 'i jn

.".I

( .

I r

I •

'. M \

»■ J^.

.rt^i/-^ t'A !: ;■ . ;

:j

ii

: ; ' t ■ '

VI. ■..

I ■ .

j: .f

INDEX TO PAPERS READ.

Notice of Discnssiony -....•••
Origin of DiscussicHi, and Rules of Conduct, . • « •
Letter of Mr. H. B. Snath (Spirit-portrait by E. Bodgen),
Extract fh)m Laporte Times (Sjnrit-portrait hy E. Bodgera,)
Extract from Judge Edmonds* ^ Spiritualism," ...

Certificate to manifestations at house of Mr. J. Dimond, Boston, -
Letter from New York (Spirit-portrait by E. Bodgers), •
Verses from the Spirit of Eugene Burdette I^ler, • . •
Beport of Committee on Test Investigation, ....
Beport of Mr. Miller's Committee, - .f . . • •
Spirit-communication from D A

Page.
$

3

29

80

81

46

47

58

78

82

90

90
112
114
124
129
181
182

Urst Letter from Mr. D. Farrar«(Medium8hip of Mr. Squire),
Communication from the Spirit of Emma Sexton, - - • -
First Letter from Dr. Morris Mattson (Experiments of Mr. Squire),
Second Letter from Mr. D. Farrar (Beply to Dr. Mattson),
Extract from N, O. Crescent (Disappearance of Dr. Bedman), -
Letter from Dr. L. Y. Bell (Mediumship of Dr. Bedman),
Certificate to manife8tation» at house of Mr. F. G. Pope, Boston, -
Extract from Boston Courier's Beport of LiTestigatioi^ of Spiritualism hj the
Harvard Committee, --------- 184

Letter frt)m Mr. C. D. Kellogg (Experiments of Mrs. Coan, before Test Com-
mittee,) -.- 184

Extract from Spirit World (Certificate to manifestations at house of Laroy
Sunderland, Boston), --------- 146

Extract from Boston Herald (Editorial Beport of Test Exhibition, by Mrs.

Coan and Dr. Bly), 149

Second Letter fixnn Dr. Morris Mattson (Beply to Mr. Farrar, etc.), • 149
Letter from Mr. W. L. F. VonVleck, ----..- 168

iUtract fi*om London Advertiser (Beport of Lecture of Bey. T. L. Harris), 161

The place of residence of Mr. Miller should be given as Mt Morris, N. Y., instead of
Madison, as printed on page 8.

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